R+L=J v.54

[corbon]

Ygrain asked a hypothetical question, having already ruled in and out several locations. I provided a hypothetical answer with admittedly no real textual evidence in support of it, but based on a broad interpretation of the Seven Kingdoms and what Lord Rickard's "Southron Ambitions" might entail (ie forging ties with as many of the southern regions as possible) I perceived a pattern that Lord Rickard's alliances were being made only at the highest levels in various regions and analyzed the map with all of that in mind. Not to mention taking into account the unexplained fact that Lyanna was found in Dorne at the end of her life. Rather than HH playing a role in the decision of where to send her as you suggest, I suggest that the fact that Lyanna was bound (hypothetically) for Dorne may have played a role in deciding her attendance at HH, where she would be able to meet two of the most highborn young ladies of the region, one of whom happened to be the Crown Princess. Also, we know nothing of the prevailing culture at Starfall, as by all accounts the Daynes are of different stock than the Martells and may have quite different traditions than the more Rhoynish ruling family.

Feel free to disagree with my speculation (which was after all given in response to another poster's request for speculation...) but there's really no need to be so dismissive!

I don't think it was terribly dismissive. In a continent as big as south america, with 2 cities supposedly ruled out (can't agree with the reasoning though - there is no reason why Ned would have told us that, or even been party to those plans), and you decide there is ony 1 place left to go? thats the only thing I dsmissed - the looking-at-map failure. There are still plenty of options available.

The rest, well as you say, its speculation based on speculation based on guesswork. But you gotta meet the common-sense tests. And IMO you don't. (So now I guess I'm being dismissive but really I'm just critiquing an analysis and adding my own.) I think several layers of that speculation are poorly founded, making each successive 'answer' less and less likely to be on track. Hence the need for the common-sense test at the end.

First, Sending Lyanna to Dorne for 'training' for her life as Lady Baratheon does little or nothing to cement an alliance there. Form a relationship or two, yes, but there's nothing solid in there like a decades long fostering, or a marriage, that cements ties. And it does even less for her as Lady Baratheon, forming the wrong relationships, learning the wrong customs (including ones that provide Dorne with a dubious reputation elsewhere) and just changing one set of foreign-ness for another.

Second, she has many many much much greater reasons to be at Harrenhal than in order to meet Dornish ladies (who don't even reside in Dorne!) That reasoning smacks of nothing less than a weak attempt to justify an answer, not actually reasoning that leads to that answer.

Third, why not Highgarden? A much better alliance than Dorne, especially if you are trying to set up a power-bloc in opposition to the Targaryens. And you have a smart, independent minded older woman there (even then) ideal as a mentor.

The common sense test:

Why does Rickard send her there (where there is)? What does it do for him? What does it do for her in her assigned role as Lady Baratheon?

Nothing personal, and nothing serious here, this is just conversation, but I think this time the specualtion has drifted into some pretty wild directions that don't meet any sort of testing, and the arguments have been made badly trying to support the conclusion, rather than the conclusion coming naturally from solid arguments.

That happens sometimes, no biggie. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be called on when it happens though.

Of course, we can agree to disagree. And if you come up with some better arguments, or reasons why the idea might pass the sniff-test, then I'd be interested to hear.

[bobbybuilderton]

This isn't proof and it's not from the books, but it is possible the creators of the show have been doing some foreshadowing all along. The opening titles move from the wall, to king's landing, to what's going on across the narrow sea. Trying to get us to make a connection between Jon, the throne, and Daenerys? Possibly... I always thought it was a strange camera motion. Probably just reaching though...

[Ygrain]

Yep, although I'd hate to see a DS prologue if it meant what a prologue POV usually means :o Maybe the DS information could be conveyed through his (future) interaction with an existing POV character? I surely hope he has something to tell us, it would seem like a waste of a mysteriously interesting character otherwise.

Oh, I'd love to see this kind of prologue, I can't stand guys who attack little girls! :P

I'm afraid I must agree with corbon, Dorne doesn't seem like a good option. I was rather thinking in terms of places we have visited through Arya's PoV as she travels through the Riverlands - with GRRM's tendency to tell parallel stories, and Arya being Lyanna's parallel, it might be that had her repeating Lyanna's "journey" without realizing the significance of those places while being significantly affected herself. Her stay at Harrenhall, though as different from Lyanna's as can be, was a crucial turn because that's where she met Jacquen and this basically set her off on a very destructive path. Another such place affecting significantly Arya's future would be the Darry castle - its location itself by the Trident would make another circle for Lyanna, and for Arya it's the place where she ran away from because of Nymeria and became estranged from a family member for the same reason. The Darrys also used to be wealthy and prominent, and if Rickard sought closer ties with the Riverlands, they would serve the same purpose as the Whents. I'm not sure whether the family ties between the Whents and Tullys would be a reason for or against Rickard's choice - whether he would have preferred to place Lyanna with a "safe" house who would become related through marriage soon, or an unrelated one, to coin a broader alliance. Also, Ned remembering Lyanna as Sansa begs for Lady would be prompted not just by the similarity of the situation but by the fact that Lyanna had actually been at the place.

@corbon: why is the reasoning against Lyanna's presence at KL or RIverlands wrong?

[corbon]

@corbon: why is the reasoning against Lyanna's presence at KL or RIverlands wrong?

Can't wait to see where she was schooled. Harrenhall has been suggested many times, but do we have any other options? Certainly not KL itself, that would have been reflected in Ned's PoV, not Riverrun, for the same reason.

Why would it have been reflected in Ned's POV, in either case? He wasn't with her, didn't share that experience, avoids thinking about her as much as possible and almost certainly had nothing to do with the decision making.

I don't see any reason to 'rule out' either location with such certainty.

I don't happen to think KL is likely. Its just too close a proximity to Aerys if he is building a power bloc against the Targaryens.

Riverrun I would have thought might be reflected in Cat's POV, and makes sense in terms of forming and strengthening future familial attachments as well as access to the Stormlands, the Westlands and KL, not to mention being less far from the North. But I'd mis-thought that when I read it as Harrenhal anyway... :blushing: (which has no real excuse to be ruled out at all - at least RR has Cat's POV and KL the dangers of being close to Aerys).

[Ygrain]

Why would it have been reflected in Ned's POV, in either case? He wasn't with her, didn't share that experience, avoids thinking about her as much as possible and almost certainly had nothing to do with the decision making. so I'm not actually opposed to

I don't see any reason to 'rule out' either location with such certainty.

I don't happen to think KL is likely. Its just too close a proximity to Aerys if he is building a power bloc against the Targaryens.

Riverrun I would have thought might be reflected in Cat's POV, and makes sense in terms of forming and strengthening future familial attachments as well as access to the Stormlands, the Westlands and KL, not to mention being less far from the North. But I'd mis-thought that when I read it as Harrenhal anyway... :blushing: (which has no real excuse to be ruled out at all - at least RR has Cat's POV and KL the dangers of being close to Aerys).

Ah, I phrased it badly - I omitted Cat's PoV for Riverrun, of course.

I know that Ned tries not to think of Lyanna but he can't help being reminded of her, so I thought that if she ever was at KL, something would have worked as a trigger for his memories. - Or, alternately, we would have got a hint frlom Barristan. Kevan does reflect on Lyanna, but I was under an impression that he saw her at Harrenhall?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I don't think it was terribly dismissive. In a continent as big as south america, with 2 cities supposedly ruled out (can't agree with the reasoning though - there is no reason why Ned would have told us that, or even been party to those plans), and you decide there is ony 1 place left to go? thats the only thing I dsmissed - the looking-at-map failure. There are still plenty of options available.

The rest, well as you say, its speculation based on speculation based on guesswork. But you gotta meet the common-sense tests. And IMO you don't. (So now I guess I'm being dismissive but really I'm just critiquing an analysis and adding my own.) I think several layers of that speculation are poorly founded, making each successive 'answer' less and less likely to be on track. Hence the need for the common-sense test at the end.

First, Sending Lyanna to Dorne for 'training' for her life as Lady Baratheon does little or nothing to cement an alliance there. Form a relationship or two, yes, but there's nothing solid in there like a decades long fostering, or a marriage, that cements ties. And it does even less for her as Lady Baratheon, forming the wrong relationships, learning the wrong customs (including ones that provide Dorne with a dubious reputation elsewhere) and just changing one set of foreign-ness for another.

Second, she has many many much much greater reasons to be at Harrenhal than in order to meet Dornish ladies (who don't even reside in Dorne!) That reasoning smacks of nothing less than a weak attempt to justify an answer, not actually reasoning that leads to that answer.

Third, why not Highgarden? A much better alliance than Dorne, especially if you are trying to set up a power-bloc in opposition to the Targaryens. And you have a smart, independent minded older woman there (even then) ideal as a mentor.

The common sense test:

Why does Rickard send her there (where there is)? What does it do for him? What does it do for her in her assigned role as Lady Baratheon?

Nothing personal, and nothing serious here, this is just conversation, but I think this time the specualtion has drifted into some pretty wild directions that don't meet any sort of testing, and the arguments have been made badly trying to support the conclusion, rather than the conclusion coming naturally from solid arguments.

That happens sometimes, no biggie. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be called on when it happens though.

Of course, we can agree to disagree. And if you come up with some better arguments, or reasons why the idea might pass the sniff-test, then I'd be interested to hear.

I think it's your use of the term "failure" which makes you seem dismissive. It's possible to disagree without setting that tone right from the start...

And it's not a failure if one offers reasoning to back up the speculation anyway, merely a difference of opinion. Further, there has been no suggestion that this is my actual, strongly held opinion- just a suggestion. Nor did I say this was the only option, Ygrain looked for alternatives to the locales she had mentioned, I ruled out a few others and based upon a perceived pattern suggested another.

To add to the reasoning I've already offered- I really don't see Lord Rickard sending his only daughter to a lesser House (unless there was a kin connection, which we'd have to wait and see on...) Viewed in that light, there aren't "plenty of options" right? I'm viewing this supposed "fostering" scenario as the Starks efforts to make far flung connections. Rather than fostering old divisions (Stormlands vs Dorne) what better way to make new alliances than to have the female members of various Houses be friends? I don't get your continued objection to the HH rationale- haven't you ever done anything for multiple reasons? There's a Tourney to be held and there are a huge variety of reasons to send all of the Stark children (most of which have to do with forming relationships and alliances) the presence of those two young ladies (the only other young ladies mentioned by name besides Lyanna Stark) would be a bonus. Also, my "suggestion" does work with other aspects of the story, such as why Lyanna ended up in Dorne and the somewhat mysterious involvement of House Dayne, both of which you haven't commented on.

Your objections seem mainly to be based upon your perceptions of the prevailing culture in the Seven Kingdoms, paired with your belief that Lyanna was in the Riverlands when she was abducted. I get that this challenges all of that, since I have also long prescribed to the Riverlands scenario. I happen to like innovative thinking and will often speculate new ideas to offer solutions to old problems. I don't mind challenging the CW if new ideas explain unresolved issues without deviating from the text.

At the end if the day I think we have different styles and (in spite of the fact that I've offered reasonable answers to it...) mine may never pass your "sniff test". That's okay - I don't mind cordial differences of opinion as long as I don't have to be a "failure" just for bringing a different perspective ;)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Oh, I'd love to see this kind of prologue, I can't stand guys who attack little girls! :P

I'm afraid I must agree with corbon, Dorne doesn't seem like a good option. I was rather thinking in terms of places we have visited through Arya's PoV as she travels through the Riverlands - with GRRM's tendency to tell parallel stories, and Arya being Lyanna's parallel, it might be that had her repeating Lyanna's "journey" without realizing the significance of those places while being significantly affected herself. Her stay at Harrenhall, though as different from Lyanna's as can be, was a crucial turn because that's where she met Jacquen and this basically set her off on a very destructive path. Another such place affecting significantly Arya's future would be the Darry castle - its location itself by the Trident would make another circle for Lyanna, and for Arya it's the place where she ran away from because of Nymeria and became estranged from a family member for the same reason. The Darrys also used to be wealthy and prominent, and if Rickard sought closer ties with the Riverlands, they would serve the same purpose as the Whents. I'm not sure whether the family ties between the Whents and Tullys would be a reason for or against Rickard's choice - whether he would have preferred to place Lyanna with a "safe" house who would become related through marriage soon, or an unrelated one, to coin a broader alliance. Also, Ned remembering Lyanna as Sansa begs for Lady would be prompted not just by the similarity of the situation but by the fact that Lyanna had actually been at the place.

@corbon: why is the reasoning against Lyanna's presence at KL or RIverlands wrong?

I had forgotten you were looking at Arya parallels! These offer interesting possibilities, especially taking GRRM's habit of offering "shadow" stories from the past to parallel the events of his present. From that perspective, I'd go with Darry or Whent.

Of course, you see my "Dornish" reasoning above- I was thinking more of the great Houses, since that seems to have been the pattern with the sons and with Lyanna's betrothal. I ruled out the Reach because Rickard's maester seems to have been from House Hightower, so there would be a connection possible already. Initially I ruled out the Lannisters on general principle (:ack:) but considering the rumored Jaime-Lysa pairing, which only became an impossibility after HH, perhaps that would have been viewed as part of a web of connections. Let's not forget that Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions" at this point are fairly inscrutable. The best we can do is try to see a pattern, which is what I was attempting :)

On a different note- I'll be off the boards for a couple weeks after this morning-- heading to Europe and a family vacation with limited technology. Adieu folks!

[Jory Cassel]

Jon being knifed at least four times appears dead

Two times definitely, maybe/probably three times, not more stabs confirmed in any way. And btw, he can still warg into ghost while being comatose, similar to Bran after the fall.

[Ygrain]

Ha! I've found something that I do not recall seeing here, at least not recently. In her HotU vision, Dany sees a blue flower growing in a chink in a wall of ice. However, when she discusses the visions with Jorah in a later chapter and he recapitulates, he says blue rose. That much for the detractors claiming that it could have been another flower.

A little request again: the quote when Jorah suggests Dany that she could take more than one spouse. I believe it's ASOS, the chapter when they are sailing to Astapor, and I don't have the book at home right now.

[Alia of the knife]

Just a couple of observations on the last discussion.

Theories:

There are many theories that abound with common denominators, and within the context of the theory of any Stark/Dorne relationships, to be fair, there are correlations that would explain quite a bit.

I personally am of a mind on the HH theory.

I think it's entirely plausible that after arriving to Westeros to attend the Tourney, that Lyanna might stay on with the Whents as I read the Brandons marriage was rather imminent, so it wouldn't make sense for her to leave, go back to Winterfell, only to turn around and have to come back.

There is a Whent connection through Oswell, which his brother would act as a handy spy to report on Lyannas comings and goings.

Darkstar vs. Jaimie

While I'm not a fan of men killing little girls, I'm also not a fan of grown, middle-aged men killing little boys even for "love." :stillsick: But, this is a theme of Martins where he takes despicable people like Jaimie, the Hound, and even Aerys Oakhart, who while he didn't hit Sansa as hard as could, he still hit her, and turn them into redeemable characters, so from an objective POV, I don't see why DS wouldn't get the same treatment.

Again, just because the Martells don't like him doesn't necessarily mean he's "evil," given that we don't if the Martells are a force for "good" yet,

Deal carefully with Martin, while I do think he is a romantic influenced by the Classics, I also think he references the realities of History just as much, which have not been pretty.

I think there are a lot more that we have to find out about the characters, and given this is an unfinished work and it's Martins, I wouldn't get too sure of my "guess work."

So again, I think respect for others POV, or their person needs remembering. This is basically a virtual "book club," and for most a hobby, so it shouldn't be as stressful as real life.

[SFDanny]

A little request again: the quote when Jorah suggests Dany that she could take more than one spouse. I believe it's ASOS, the chapter when they are sailing to Astapor, and I don't have the book at home right now.

"Your Grace," he conceded, "the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust. Well, here's your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen - three dragons, and three riders."

"Yes," said Dany, "but my brothers are dead."

"Rhaenys and Visenya were Aegon's wives as well as his sisters. You have no brothers, but you can take husbands. And I tell you truly, Daenerys, there is no man in all the world who will ever be half so true to you as me." (A Storm of Swords 99) bold emphasis added

[Stark Revenge]

How many people realized this from actually reading the books before finding it out from a forum like this? Cause I sure didn't, but as soon as I did everything clicked into place.

[J. Stargaryen]

Ha! I've found something that I do not recall seeing here, at least not recently. In her HotU vision, Dany sees a blue flower growing in a chink in a wall of ice. However, when she discusses the visions with Jorah in a later chapter and he recapitulates, he says blue rose. That much for the detractors claiming that it could have been another flower.

<snip>

Good catch. It's in chapter 63 of ACoK:

The streets grew emptier as they passed through a district given over to gloomy stone warehouses. Aggo went before her and Jhogo behind, leaving Ser Jorah Mormont at her side. Her bell rang softly, and Dany found her thoughts returning to the Palace of Dust once more, as the tongue returns to a space left by a missing tooth. Child of three, they had called her, daughter of death, slayer of lies, bride of fire. So many threes. Three fires, three mounts to ride, three treasons. “The dragon has three heads,” she sighed. “Do you know what that means, Jorah?”

“Your Grace? The sigil of House Targaryen is a three-headed dragon, red on black.” “I know that. But there are no three-headed dragons.” “The three heads were Aegon and his sisters.” “Visenya and Rhaenys,” she recalled. “I am descended from Aegon and Rhaenys through their son Aenys and their grandson Jaehaerys.”

“Blue lips speak only lies, isn’t that what Xaro told you? Why do you care what the warlocks whispered? All they wanted was to suck the life from you, you know that now.”

“Perhaps,” she said reluctantly. “Yet the things I saw.”

“A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood... what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?”

“A cloth dragon on poles,” Dany explained. “Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight.”

Ser Jorah frowned.

Dany could not let it go. “His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I’m certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings.”

Ser Jorah’s frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. “Prince Rhaegar played such a harp,” he conceded. “You saw him?”

She nodded. “There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon.”

“Prince Aegon was Rhaegar’s heir by Elia of Dorne,” Ser Jorah said. “But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall.”

“I remember,” Dany said sadly. “They murdered Rhaegar’s daughter as well, the little princess. Rhaenys, she was named, like Aegon’s sister. There was no Visenya, but he said the dragon has three heads. What is the song of ice and fire?”

“It’s no song I’ve ever heard.”

“I went to the warlocks hoping for answers, but instead they’ve left me with a hundred new questions.”

[MtnLion]

Just a couple of observations on the last discussion.

Theories:

There are many theories that abound with common denominators, and within the context of the theory of any Stark/Dorne relationships, to be fair, there are correlations that would explain quite a bit.

I personally am of a mind on the HH theory.

I think it's entirely plausible that after arriving to Westeros to attend the Tourney, that Lyanna might stay on with the Whents as I read the Brandons marriage was rather imminent, so it wouldn't make sense for her to leave, go back to Winterfell, only to turn around and have to come back.

Let me disagree, for a mintue or two. After the Tourney at Harrenhal, in the year of the false spring, there was a return to winter. It seems plausible that all of the Stark siblings were back at Winterfell, for Lyanna to tell Ned about her misgivings about Robert. When, after the winter is over, Catelyn's betrothal is announced and Littlefinger challenges Brandon. Brandon takes up his sword and puts Littlefinger in a sickbed for a fortnight, before he is carried away in a litter. After the duel is over Brandon takes his leave of Catelyn for a short errand, and on his return trip he receives news that has him ride for King's Landing.

It is plain to me that no one that we know of winters at Harrenhal, after the tourney. Robert and Ned return to the Eyrie after the winter is over. Which is where they are when Aerys demands their heads.

ETA: clarity on Brandon's departure, it is immediately after wounding Littlefinger.

[Ygrain]

@SFDanny, J. Stargaryen, thanks for the quotes!

How many people realized this from actually reading the books before finding it out from a forum like this? Cause I sure didn't, but as soon as I did everything clicked into place.

I did; most of us in this thread did, I think.

[Alia of the knife]

Let me disagree, for a mintue or two. After the Tourney at Harrenhal, in the year of the false spring, there was a return to winter. It seems plausible that all of the Stark siblings were back at Winterfell, for Lyanna to tell Ned about her misgivings about Robert. When, after the winter is over, Catelyn's betrothal is announced and Littlefinger challenges Brandon. Brandon takes up his sword and puts Littlefinger in a sickbed for a fortnight, before he is carried away in a litter. After the duel is over Brandon takes his leave of Catelyn for a short errand, and on his return trip he receives news that has him ride for King's Landing.

It is plain to me that no one that we know of winters at Harrenhal, after the tourney. Robert and Ned return to the Eyrie after the winter is over. Which is where they are when Aerys demands their heads.

ETA: clarity on Brandon's departure, it is immediately after wounding Littlefinger.

No, that's fine. It's one of many theories, and I am all for clarity. :)

You are much more of a master of timelines than I am, and I think you compiled a timeline before did you not?

I would appreciate your input on this.

[MtnLion]

No, that's fine. It's one of many theories, and I am all for clarity. :)

You are much more of a master of timelines than I am, and I think you compiled a timeline before did you not?

I would appreciate your input on this.

There are very scant clues regarding events following the Tourney at Harrenhal. We must assume that 9 to 12 months of winter followed the tourney. Ned and Lyanna were at Winterfell when Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. Lyanna had probably been presented to Robert as a candidate at Harrenhal, and been accepted. It was at Harrenhal that Lyanna had a chance to learn Robert's character. It was at Winterfell that Lyanna voiced her doubts to Ned with regard to Robert's proclivities.

Littlefinger challenged Brandon when he learned of Catelyn's betrothal, and Brandon responded immediately. The announcement must have been after winter had lifted, for Brandon to respond. Added into this is that Brandon was absent from Riverrun for more than a fortnight, but short enough a period to match his excuse to Catelyn of a short time for the errand. Brandon was on his way to the wedding when he was diverted to King's Landing.

I am not trying to imply that Lyanna could not have been taken at Harrenhal. I am saying that she wintered at Winterfell, which argues against her being warded at Harrenhal. She was most likely warded elsewhere, if at all. Ned recalls her at Winterfell, and never thinks of her being warded.

[Sister without Banners]

Hello :) I'm still new to the forums but totally convinced by R+L=J. It just makes sense every way I look at it.

I just have one question (sorry if this has been dealt with before, I haven't read all 53 of the previous threads ;) ) I've read nothing that suggests anyone was looking for a possible child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Since most people in the Seven Kingdoms seem to believe that Rhaegar raped Lyanna (or at least believe there was a sexual element to their relationship), it would be likely that some people considered Lyanna may have had a child.

We know that Ned did a good job of hiding Jon's parentage, and he may well have told Robert something to discourage him from looking for and possibly killing a child of R+L.However, this doesn't necessarily prevent others investigating. Of course, since Robert's Rebellion there were plenty of other things for people to think about, but there must have been some curiosity about the truth of R+L's relationship.

I don't think this needs to be a problem for the R+L=J theory, I just find it odd that apparently no-one in the Seven Kingdoms was speculating about or looking for a R+L child. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Let me disagree, for a mintue or two. After the Tourney at Harrenhal, in the year of the false spring, there was a return to winter. It seems plausible that all of the Stark siblings were back at Winterfell, for Lyanna to tell Ned about her misgivings about Robert. When, after the winter is over, Catelyn's betrothal is announced and Littlefinger challenges Brandon. Brandon takes up his sword and puts Littlefinger in a sickbed for a fortnight, before he is carried away in a litter. After the duel is over Brandon takes his leave of Catelyn for a short errand, and on his return trip he receives news that has him ride for King's Landing.

It is plain to me that no one that we know of winters at Harrenhal, after the tourney. Robert and Ned return to the Eyrie after the winter is over. Which is where they are when Aerys demands their heads.

ETA: clarity on Brandon's departure, it is immediately after wounding Littlefinger.

Checking in from the airport while I still have service...

Here is the voice of reason with the little detail we all forgot- Lyanna was at Winterfell after the Tourney, indicating that she wintered there. Thanks for being on the spot with those little details when rampant theorizing takes hold ;)

:cheers:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Hello :) I'm still new to the forums but totally convinced by R+L=J. It just makes sense every way I look at it.

I just have one question (sorry if this has been dealt with before, I haven't read all 53 of the previous threads ;) ) I've read nothing that suggests anyone was looking for a possible child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Since most people in the Seven Kingdoms seem to believe that Rhaegar raped Lyanna (or at least believe there was a sexual element to their relationship), it would be likely that some people considered Lyanna may have had a child.

We know that Ned did a good job of hiding Jon's parentage, and he may well have told Robert something to discourage him from looking for and possibly killing a child of R+L.However, this doesn't necessarily prevent others investigating. Of course, since Robert's Rebellion there were plenty of other things for people to think about, but there must have been some curiosity about the truth of R+L's relationship.

I don't think this needs to be a problem for the R+L=J theory, I just find it odd that apparently no-one in the Seven Kingdoms was speculating about or looking for a R+L child. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Hello and welcome :)

I'm not sure about what everyone else in the kingdom thought or was told but I think it's just possible Ned told Robert enough of the truth (ie she died of complications of childbirth but the child died too) to put him off the scent. We know Robert assumed she was kidnapped and raped multiple times. Letting him think she conceived a child but died as a result would fuel his hatred of Rhaegar, which we know to be epic.