R+L=J v.54

[FireInTheNorth]

I avoided the forums for a long time because I came up with R+L=J theory, and didn't want to have it debunked. Imagine my thrill when I saw it was it predominant theory!

How I came to the conclusion was trying to figure out what Ned's obsession with promises to Lyanna was all about. The bloody bed....she must have had a baby. Why is she worried about it? Because it is Rhaegar's and Robert would obviously kill it and thus she is begging Ned to protect it. Then I spent a while wondering what might have happened to the child and when it would show up in the story. Then head slap...it's Jon.

Btw...I was completely under the assumption Jon would still be bastard and mind was blown when saw evidence given that Rhaegar and Lyanna could be married. Another head slap. Aegon and his sisters...the incest is so shocking, I totally didn't notice the polygamy aspect of it.

[Harpo of House Trashcan]

Targaryen genes are strong enough to overpower Martell genes since no Targs resemble Dornish even with that Targ-Martell marriage 100 years back. Stark genes are pretty weak and are overpowered by Tully genes. Wouldn't Jon resemble a Targ at least a bit if he was Rhaegar's son? Yes, but he looks purely like a Stark. Thats my input.

[Jon Icefyre]

Targaryen genes are strong enough to overpower Martell genes since no Targs resemble Dornish even with that Targ-Martell marriage 100 years back. Stark genes are pretty weak and are overpowered by Tully genes. Wouldn't Jon resemble a Targ at least a bit if he was Rhaegar's son? Yes, but he looks purely like a Stark. Thats my input.

Actually this is a false statement because both prince Baelor 'breakspear' Targaryen and princess Rhaenys Targaryen(Rhaegar's firstborn) were said to have had the "Dornish look" over the Targ look, with both of them taking after their 'dornish' mothers and looking nothing like their Targ fathers. So, considering the fact that Rhaegar already had a kid(Rhaenys) who looked nothing like a Targ and instead looked like a full blown Martell, I'd say it makes complete sense that Jon too doesn't look like a Targ....

[Ygrain]

Haha your welcome and here are some examples of Ned thinking about the 'promises' flashbacks:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

"I will," Ned promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

"Eat the bastard. Don't care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned." {said Robert.}

"I promise." "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's voice echoed.

Notice in one of the quotes Ned says, 'vows' in addition to the, "promises he made to Lyanna and the price he'd paid to keep them" not just simply a 'promise' or the price he'd paid to keep 'it'.....The fact that Ned's using plural forms to describe whatever he agreed to do for Lyanna suggests that she asked him to do more than one thing, which means she probably asked Ned to protect Jon from Robert as well as take her bones back to the crypts of Winterfell so she could rest beside her father and brother who both died over her, along with possibly a few other things....

Yes, the use of plural (as well as vows over mere promises) was not lost on me :-)

But in the context of Lyanna pleading like Sansa did - and this is where we get all those murdered or nearly-murdered other children, only one thing she could have pleaded for makes sense.

[Jon Icefyre]

Yes, the use of plural (as well as vows over mere promises) was not lost on me :-)

But in the context of Lyanna pleading like Sansa did - and this is where we get all those murdered or nearly-murdered other children, only one thing she could have pleaded for makes sense.

:agree:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I have a point or two about the HH/Mya Stone timeline that may simplify the logic. (I realize a lot of this was covered previously but I did not notice points 3 & 6 being completely addressed- sorry if I missed it, I'm playing "catch up" here)

1. We know Mya was born in 280 or 281 and that Ned held her when she was an infant

2. We know that the Tourney took place in the year of the false spring (281) I agree with corbon's assessment of winter followed by maybe spring because there are several warm months then winter again and finally spring again

3. We know that Robert and Ned came down to the Tourney from the Vale

4. We know that Ned & Lyanna had a conversation about Robert and his bastard in the Vale at Winterfell

5. We know that Rickard & Brandon die in 281 at least 9 months post HH, to allow for Aegon's birth to occur

6. We know that Robert has not been to WF before the visit at the beginning of AGoT (we have discussed this in a previous thread and quotes were provided as proof- I'm traveling so I can't fish the quotes at the moment)

My interpretation is that Mya was born and Ned held her pre Tourney. The Tourney takes place early in 281. After the Tourney the Starks return to WF where the betrothal of Robert and Lyanna (and possibly Brandon & Catelyn) is announced to the WF community. Lyanna's knowledge of Mya and Robert's behavior indicates she has had the opportunity to hear some gossip (ie at the Tourney) I surmise that the Starks spent the return of winter in the North, while Robert went either to the Vale or SE. Ned returned to the Vale when true spring arrived and remained there until the outbreak of the rebellion. Brandon at some point travelled to RR. Lyanna herself traveled south to points unknown and on an uncertain timeline. The abduction and subsequent murders of Rickard and Brandon occurring also in 281 point to HH being early in 281 and the balance of winter being relatively short.

And a final point about the duration of the return of winter- I live in the NE US. We frequently have what one might call a "false spring" in mid-late winter. Winter weather then generally continues well into calendrical spring (ie past March 21) The point being that I would expect the return of winter to be comparatively short- a period of renewed cold and storms but not a span as long as the true winter.

[Maxpey]

Thank you :-)

Hmm... perhaps I might perform my usual request for the quote? :-)

Yes, and I can provide my usual reply posting the wrong quote. :D

[Ygrain]

abduction and subsequent murders of Rickard and Brandon occurring also in 281 point to HH being early in 281

I wasn't following the whole discussion but Rickard died in 282 (the same year when Aegon was born, which makes sense because we know that Rhaegar was present at KL soon after Aegon was born)

Yes, and I can provide my usual reply posting the wrong quote. :D

So, where is the quote? :P

[Maxpey]

I wasn't following the whole discussion but Rickard died in 282 (the same year when Aegon was born, which makes sense because we know that Rhaegar was present at KL soon after Aegon was born)

So, where is the quote? :P

My bad. I am at home and all of my books are at work (I know the opposite should be the case). ;)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I wasn't following the whole discussion but Rickard died in 282 (the same year when Aegon was born, which makes sense because we know that Rhaegar was present at KL soon after Aegon was born)

You're right of course, I think it said 281 somewhere upthread. The jist of it anyways, is that most things seem to point to HH being earlier in 281 rather than later.

[325504503]

Many thanks to Jon Icefrye and Alia of the Knife (love that reference) and everyone else for bringing me up to speed on the discussed theories.

Not that my opinion matters much but here it is:

I believe something is physically in the crypt that proves Jon is the legitimate heir of R+L. I think it has to be some sort of document that spells it out for all to read. I also think a personal item from each of Rhaeagar and Lyanna needs to be in the crypt to lend credence to the document’s validity.

I am on the fence as to if Jon will find any sort of weapon to assist in the coming fight with the “others”

I am fairly certain that he will NOT find a dragon egg. (Just doesn’t seem to fit with Jon’s character as written)

[MtnLion]

1. We know Mya was born in 280 or 281 and that Ned held her when she was an infant

2. We know that the Tourney took place in the year of the false spring (281) I agree with corbon's assessment of winter followed by maybe spring because there are several warm months then winter again and finally spring again

3. We know that Robert and Ned came down to the Tourney from the Vale

4. We know that Ned & Lyanna had a conversation about Robert and his bastard in the Vale at Winterfell

5. We know that Rickard & Brandon die in 281 at least 9 months post HH, to allow for Aegon's birth to occur

6. We know that Robert has not been to WF before the visit at the beginning of AGoT (we have discussed this in a previous thread and quotes were provided as proof- I'm traveling so I can't fish the quotes at the moment)

I agree with these points, though it seems Rickard and Brandon are both murdered in 282. (corbon said 281, earlier.) And, one more point, Littlefinger challenges Brandon when Catelyn's betrothal is announced, and Brandon defends the betrothal, before he leaves Catelyn (for a short errand) the last time.

[Queen Nymeria Martell]

Targaryen genes are strong enough to overpower Martell genes since no Targs resemble Dornish even with that Targ-Martell marriage 100 years back. Stark genes are pretty weak and are overpowered by Tully genes. Wouldn't Jon resemble a Targ at least a bit if he was Rhaegar's son? Yes, but he looks purely like a Stark. Thats my input.

Really? So why does Jon look so much like Ned, Arya (and Lyanna)? If Stark genes are weak none of them should look alike. Also, you are implying Jon's mother has weak genes and Catelyn has stronger genes. Robert Arryn does not look very Tully, if I am not mistaken, does he have red hair and blue eyes?

[Stannis Lives]

Really? So why does Jon look so much like Ned, Arya (and Lyanna)? If Stark genes are weak none of them should look alike. Also, you are implying Jon's mother has weak genes and Catelyn has stronger genes. Robert Arryn does not look very Tully, if I am not mistaken, does he have red hair and blue eyes?

Also Jon is described as having different color eyes than the Starks. They are darker and close to black. Some of the targs are described as having black eyes when their hair is died or when they have a dornish look.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

...

I believe something is physically in the crypt that proves Jon is the legitimate heir of R+L. I think it has to be some sort of document that spells it out for all to read. I also think a personal item from each of Rhaeagar and Lyanna needs to be in the crypt to lend credence to the document’s validity.

...

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Is this from his dream, descending into the crypts even though he doesn't want to?

[Nami]

I thought Jon had grey eyes?

[Harpo of House Trashcan]

Okay, I understand that I was wrong and in my defense i have to say I havent read the books in a little while, and i wrote that late at night and when i tried to think of what they looked like I thought of the show characters

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I agree with these points, though it seems Rickard and Brandon are both murdered in 282. (corbon said 281, earlier.) And, one more point, Littlefinger challenges Brandon when Catelyn's betrothal is announced, and Brandon defends the betrothal, before he leaves Catelyn (for a short errand) the last time.

Yes. I think it possible that the betrothals were announced first in WF for the Stark bannermen (perhaps a feast in honor of the good news and true spring arriving?) and then Brandon travelled to RR for the official announcement there. (As an aside- Cat says early in AGoT that her father "promised" her to Brandon when she was 12. I assume that was years prior to 281-2) I also think that perhaps Brandon's "errand" was to meet his sister and escort her to RR for his wedding. That however, is sheer speculation ;)

[Ygrain]

I thought Jon had grey eyes?

So dark grey that they looks almost black (Bran's first chapter). It has been speculated that the dark colour may be hiding some purple :-)