R+L=J v.54

[Dio Forel]

precisely

Shouldnt we start an R + R = J thread now? Rhaegar didnt even need Lyanna thats the secret shes keeping.

[Stannis Lives]

Shouldnt we start an R + R = J thread now? Rhaegar didnt even need Lyanna thats the secret shes keeping.

:agree:

[Boleyn]

Shouldnt we start an R + R = J thread now? Rhaegar didnt even need Lyanna thats the secret shes keeping.

How does R+R=J work, I'm confused by that.

[Stannis Lives]

How does R+R=J work, I'm confused by that.

J. Stargaryen, on 17 July 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

After further inspection, the second syllable* of GRRM's mother's name is -gar; Margaret.

So maybe it's Raymond and Margaret = Ray-gar.

ETA: *I'm not sure if it's Mar-gar-et or Mar-ga-ret.

"So...Rhaegar is Jons father....AND mother. "

[Ser Creighton]

I would have to think that Rhaegar has to be aware of Brandons nature, and someone from her family would be inquiring about her well being, even if it was a more measured Rickard, or Ned.

BUT, what if Rhaegar had hoped it would be Robert whose reaction would likely be very similar to Brandons, and Rhaegar knows his father.

The hope of course that crazy dad take care of a challenge from her betrothed from the outset, however, Brandon got a similar message first and it was the brother instead of the betrothed that was killed.

Seems pretty par for the course in aSoIaF.

(These really are situations where one has to micromanage a plot, or a scheme).

So Rhaegar setting up Robert to die but Brandon got caught in the crossfire. How very Gatsby of you, which also happens to be Martins favorite book.

That aside the variations are par for the course when dealing with an unreliable narrator with multiple POV's. Each character is going to project to some extent which is also standard use of the unreliable narrator.

But until anyone knows what Brandon was told and what actually went down it's just a rush to judgment. Most people who talk about Brandon tend to project what they want to have happened for whatever narration they are following. You might call it unreliable interpretation. Brandon is this or Brandon is that, when the truth is Brandon's story is a large enigma. While Martin drops clues about Brandon, Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Aerys, he has never given enough information to actually give any conclusive evidence to what Brandon was told. So people are rushing to judge him using there own interpretations, wants, and desires. Some want a cookie cutter love story, some hate the character who has by and large done little wrong and given the world is a rather average example of a Northern man.

Take Brandon's temper, Brandon had a bad temper. We never really see this, he gave Littlefinger every chance in the world to yield. But do many people have tempers when their sisters are abducted? I gotta go with yes on that. For some odd reason Brandon reminds me of Theon a bit. Brandon got mad and Lyanna got mad, but we only have one real occasion where we are told he got really mad. And Lyanna got mad when she saw Howland being bullied and beaten. In both cases the cause of the anger was an injustice. Well that's par for the course most of the time with just about everyone.

People who don't understand the motivation for the character, tend use hindsight and the far more omnipotent POV of the reader to debate a case against him. Your a young lord and warrior of a brutal world, and your sister who he loves very much gets ubducted. He got angry and he got rash, but he isn't the one abducting people, and he didn't kill anyone. He may have yelled and said some stupid things, in an extreme situation. It's not that complicated. It's really hard to be clear headed in his situation or even imagine him being that way. I wouldn't actually buy the character being totally rational, as nobody is totally rational, and in an abduction situation?

"Hey your 14 year old sister is was just abducted by Rhaegar."

"Gasp, can I get some tea and some biscuits, I would like to contomplate the situation."

"Yes the chocolate biscuits would be devine."

"Perhaps we should send out an amber alert Brandon"

"Will talk about it after tea."

"Lets run the mathmatical variations on varying outcomes of ever possible given situation to every action I may take."

"Ummm Tea, thank you try not to interrupt."

"Sorry"

"Ok, I have decided that no matter what I do Aerys will kill me because that is what the Author wants to happen, so fuck it, I am going to KL and saying what ever I feel like."

"But Brandon"

"I can't fight inevitability, although I will be reading book six to find out why exactly I did this as the author has also left me in the shadows."

[Alia of the knife]

So Rhaegar setting up Robert to die but Brandon got caught in the crossfire. How very Gatsby of you, which also happens to be Martins favorite book.

That aside the variations are par for the course when dealing with an unreliable narrator with multiple POV's. Each character is going to project to some extent which is also standard use of the unreliable narrator.

But until anyone knows what Brandon was told and what actually went down it's just a rush to judgment. Most people who talk about Brandon tend to project what they want to have happened for whatever narration they are following. You might call it unreliable interpretation. Brandon is this or Brandon is that, when the truth is Brandon's story is a large enigma. While Martin drops clues about Brandon, Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Aerys, he has never given enough information to

actually give any conclusive evidence to what Brandon was told. So people are rushing to judge him using there own interpretations, wants, and desires. Some want a cookie cutter love story, some hate the character who has by and large done little wrong and given the world is a rather average example of a Northern man.

Take Brandon's temper, Brandon had a bad temper. We never really see this, he gave Littlefinger every chance in the world to yield. But do many people have tempers when their sisters are abducted? I gotta go with yes on that. For some odd reason Brandon reminds me of Theon a bit. Brandon got mad and Lyanna got mad, but we only have one real occasion where we are told he got really mad. And Lyanna got mad when she saw Howland being bullied and beaten. In both cases the cause of the anger was an injustice. Well that's par for the course most of the time with just about everyone.

People who don't understand the motivation for the character, tend use hindsight and the far more omnipotent POV of the reader to debate a case against him. Your a young lord and warrior of a brutal world, and your sister who he loves very much gets ubducted. He got angry and he got rash, but he isn't the one abducting people, and he didn't kill anyone. He may have yelled and said some stupid things, in an extreme situation. It's not that complicated. It's really hard to be clear headed in his situation or even imagine him being that way. I wouldn't actually buy the character being totally rational, as nobody is totally rational, and in an abduction situation?

"Hey your 14 year old sister is was just abducted by Rhaegar."

"Gasp, can I get some tea and some biscuits, I would like to contomplate the situation."

"Yes the chocolate biscuits would be devine."

"Perhaps we should send out an amber alert Brandon"

"Will talk about it after tea."

"Lets run the mathmatical variations on varying outcomes of ever possible given situation to every action I may take."

"Ummm Tea, thank you try not to interrupt."

"Sorry"

"Ok, I have decided that no matter what I do Aerys will kill me because that is what the Author wants to happen, so fuck it, I am going to KL and saying what ever I feel like."

"But Brandon"

"I can't fight inevitability, although I will be reading book six to find out why exactly I did ths as the author has also left me in the shadows."

I also had in mind the analogy of King David setting up Uriah to die in order to marry Bathsheba.

[Maxpey]

How does R+R=J work, I'm confused by that.

Rhaegar, like some species of frogs, was asexual. He didn't need Lyanna. She was just his "beard." :drool:

[Ghost's Shadow]

He was the last true dragon, after all.

[Stannis Lives]

He was the last true dragon, after all.

I don't understand the definition of "true dragon". I see it all the time on these forums and everyone has a different definition. There are black dragons and red dragons and bastard dragons. There are lawful descendants of dragons like the baratheons. There are cousins like house valerian. Why aren't they dragons? Daemon blackfyre was the first born son of aegon and his mother was targ. Is he a "true dragon"? He is 100% targ and was legitimized on aegons deathbed. (f)aegon is a "true dragon" whether blackfyre or targ if its all about blood. Certainly if Dany is a "true dragon" since she's half dornish if not more than half dornish. Jon is even 50% stark and 50% targ/dornish. Dany is 60% dornish and 40% targ. (f)aegon is either a blackfyre descendant, or a better claim to the throne than his aunt if he's a targ. Either way I think Jon's blood and faegons blood are far more "plausible" for a claim or magic event than Dany. In the end, faegon has the most interesting claim to the iron throne. Snow has the most interesting blood combo and is therefore best qualified to be "ice and fire" and AA and fight the others as king in the north.

Edit: I call Dany half dornish because the ENTIRE Daeron / Martell line all intermarried and are therefore all half targ and half dornish.

[Old-Growth]

Dany is not 60% Dornish---She is Elia's good-sister not her daughter.

[Old-Growth]

There are only two Targaryen/Dornish marriages we know of: the one that brought Dorne into the realm and Rhaegar/Elia.

[Old-Growth]

"Either way I think Jon's blood and faegons blood are far more "plausible" for a claim or magic event than Dany."

Oh really? What happened with Drogo's funeral pyre was neither magical nor of any interest?

And where is it written that Young Griff must either be a Targaryen or a Blackfyre?

[Stannis Lives]

There are only two Targaryen/Dornish marriages we know of: the one that brought Dorne into the realm and Rhaegar/Elia.

and all are descendants of martell and daeron the good. therefore all descendants of martell and daeron, like jon or dany, are as much dornish as targ.

[Stannis Lives]

"Either way I think Jon's blood and faegons blood are far more "plausible" for a claim or magic event than Dany."

Oh really? What happened with Drogo's funeral pyre was neither magical nor of any interest?

And where is it written that Young Griff must either be a Targaryen or a Blackfyre?

not sure who else he can be with the gold white hair and purple eyes,

[Dr. Pepper]

not sure who else he can be with the gold white hair and purple eyes,

Technically, he could be just about anyone. The Valyrian Freehold was quite an impression spread over the continent and silver-haired, purple-eyed folks are seen all over. Though yes, the story makes much more sense when he's a Blackfyre.

[Stannis Lives]

Technically, he could be just about anyone. The Valyrian Freehold was quite an impression spread over the continent and silver-haired, purple-eyed folks are seen all over. Though yes, the story makes much more sense when he's a Blackfyre.

I agree 100%. i was talking narrative.

[TheMysteriousOne]

and all are descendants of martell and daeron the good. therefore all descendants of martell and daeron, like jon or dany, are as much dornish as targ.

No they aren't. That's like saying that the Targaryens are as much First Men and Andal as they are Valyrian because they married into two different Houses once. House Targaryen's Valyrian blood far outweighs their First Men, Andal and Rhoynish blood.

[Stannis Lives]

No they aren't. That's like saying that the Targaryens are as much First Men and Andal as they are Valyrian because they married into two different Houses once. House Targaryen's Valyrian blood far outweighs their First Men, Andal and Rhoynish blood.

you are missing my point. all of the characters in discussion are descendents of myriah martell and daeron the good. therefore all descendanrs are as much dornish as targ. they just had the targ name because it was a male line. however they are all equally dornish.

[Jon Icefyre]

I don't understand the definition of "true dragon". I see it all the time on these forums and everyone has a different definition. There are black dragons and red dragons and bastard dragons. There are lawful descendants of dragons like the baratheons. There are cousins like house valerian. Why aren't they dragons? Daemon blackfyre was the first born son of aegon and his mother was targ. Is he a "true dragon"? He is 100% targ and was legitimized on aegons deathbed. (f)aegon is a "true dragon" whether blackfyre or targ if its all about blood. Certainly if Dany is a "true dragon" since she's half dornish if not more than half dornish. Jon is even 50% stark and 50% targ/dornish. Dany is 60% dornish and 40% targ. (f)aegon is either a blackfyre descendant, or a better claim to the throne than his aunt if he's a targ. Either way I think Jon's blood and faegons blood are far more "plausible" for a claim or magic event than Dany. In the end, faegon has the most interesting claim to the iron throne. Snow has the most interesting blood combo and is therefore best qualified to be "ice and fire" and AA and fight the others as king in the north.

Edit: I call Dany half Dornish because the ENTIRE Daeron / Martell line all intermarried and are therefore all half targ and half dornish.

Ok seriously wtf are you talking about? Lol I thought I already explained this to you, if YG is a Blackfyre then he definitely has the least amount of Targ blood in his veins out of the three. The Blackfyres that have somehow managed to survive from being in exile for a century or so would have to have done that through their female line by GRRM's own admission, which means any Blackfyre's that would still be alive now would have blood that is far more diluted than Dany or Jon. After Daeron the good marries off his sister to the Dornish there aren't any more Dornish marriages between the Targs that we know of until Rhaegar and Elia which (is over a century later), which means the Martell blood would eventually fade from the Targ children of the later generations. Dany's mother and father were both Targs and to say that her and Jon would have a strong amount of Martell blood in them simply because one of their descendents more than a century ago had a Martell queen is ridiculous. Dany's Dornish blood is not 50% or 60%, I'd say it's more like 12.5% and even that's being very very generous for the sake of argument. They're not all equally Dornish, and if YG is a Blackfyre then he has less Targ blood then Jon or Dany.....

[TheMysteriousOne]

you are missing my point. all of the characters in discussion are descendents of myriah martell and daeron the good. therefore all descendanrs are as much dornish as targ. they just had the targ name because it was a male line. however they are all equally dornish.

Do you mean by name or by blood?