R+L=J v.54

[Stannis Lives]

Ok seriously wtf are you talking about, I thought I already explained this to you, if YG is a Blackfyre then he definitely has the least amount of Targ blood in his veins out of the three. The Blackfyres that have somehow managed to survive from being in exile for a century or so would have to have done through the female line by GRRM's own admission, which means any Blackfyre's that would still be alive now would have blood that is far more diluted than Dany or Jon. After Daeron the good marries off his sister to the Dornish there aren't any more Dornish marriages between the Targs that we know of until Rhaegar and Elia, which means the Martell blood would eventually fade from the Targ children of the later generations. Dany mother and father were both Targs and to say that her or Jon would have a strong amount of Martell blood in them simply because on of their descendents a century ago had a Martell queen is ridiculous. Dany's Dornish blood is not 50% or 60%, I'd say it's more like 12.5% and that's being very generous. They're not all equally Dornish, and if YG is a Blackfyre then he has kless Targ blood then Jon or Dany.....

Again you are missing the fact that you and i are the saying the same thing. i find the blackfyre claim interesting. nothing more. however what im discussing is a majorly overlooked fact of the targ bloodline. daerons sister didnlt marry a martell. he did. therefore maekar. aegon v, jaehaerys ii, aerys ii, rhaegar, visrys, dany, aegon vi. they are all DIRECT MALE DESCENDANTS of myriam martell and daeron ii. bloodwise, all of the targ kings after this are as much dorn as targ.

Edit: I agree that daerons sister also married a martell. My bad. I was simply focusing on daerons line.

[Stannis Lives]

Do you mean by name or by blood?

i'm only talking blood. somehow i dont think the gods care about names.

[TheMysteriousOne]

bloodwise, all of the targ kings after this are as much dorn as targ.

No offense, but do you understand how genetics and bloodlines work?

[Stannis Lives]

No offense, but do you understand how genetics and bloodlines work?

you dont see it, do you? go look at the family tree. every king after daeron the good is a direct male descendant of myriam martell. there is no other targ intermarry. maekar is their son. aegon 5 v is his son, jaeharys ii is his. aerys ii is his. rhaegar, viserys, dany are his. all equal blood descendants of daeron and myriam martell.

[Old-Growth]

Discussions that involve conflicting understandings of the same term are doomed :)

[TheMysteriousOne]

you dont see it, do you? go look at the family tree. every king after daeron the good is a direct male descendant of myriam martell. there is no other targ intermarry. maekar is their son. aegon 5 v is his son, jaeharys ii is his. aerys ii is his. rhaegar, viserys, dany are his. all equal blood descendants of daeron and myriam martell.

Aerys II and Rhaella were married, so yes there was Targaryen intermarrying. Let me explain it to you in a simpler way. Let's say that there is a family of black people that have only married people from their own race for hundreds of years. One man decides to marry a white woman and they have biracial children. These biracial children then proceed to marry black people, instead of white people and so do their children, and their grandchildren and so forth until there are only three descendants left, eventually. Are these people as much white as they are black?

ETA: I agree that they have Dornish blood, but nowhere near as much as the Valyrian blood which they possess.

[Jon Icefyre]

Again you are missing the fact that you and i are the saying the same thing. i find the blackfyre claim interesting. nothing more. however what im discussing is a majorly overlooked fact of the targ bloodline. daerons sister didnlt marry a martell. he did. therefore maekar. aegon v, jaehaerys ii, aerys ii, rhaegar, visrys, dany, aegon vi. they are all DIRECT MALE DESCENDANTS of myriam martell and daeron ii. bloodwise, all of the targ kings after this are as much dorn as targ.

First of all Daeron's sister Daenerys l did marry a Martell which is the reason the Blackfyre rebellion began in the first place look it up, second of all you clearly have no clue how genetics work. Yes Daeron's kid and grandkids would have a decent amount of Martell blood in them, but since no one else in the royal family that we know of marries or has kids with the Martells after Daeron and his sister that Martell blood would start to fade, and as each generation goes by without the Targs mating with the Martells that blood would fade more and more with each generation, so by the time Aerys marries Rhaella and has Dany, there's literally pretty much no Martell blood left. Once Aegon 5 decided to marry for love and allow his sons to do the same thing it pretty much erased any possible trace of Martell blood that might have been left.

[Stannis Lives]

Aerys II and Rhaella were married, so yes there was Targaryen intermarrying. Let me explain it to you in a simpler way. Let's say that there is a family of black people that have only married people from their own race for hundreds of years. One man decides to marry a white woman and they have biracial children. These biracial children then proceed to marry black people, instead of white people and so do their children, and their grandchildren and so forth until there is only three descendants left, eventually. Are these people as much white as they are black?

lol. yes but they didnt marry more black people after the martell daeron marriage. they just married outside the bloodline or each other. aerys ii married rhaelle but they are brother and sister and both equal descendants of daeron ii and myriam martelll. that doesnt dilute the bloodlines. its a clone.

[Stannis Lives]

First of all Daeron's sister Daenerys l did marry a Martell which is the reason the Blackfyre rebellion began in the first place look it up, second of all you clearly have no clue how genetics work. Yes Daeron's kid and grandkids would have a decent amount of Martell blood in them, but since no one else in the royal family that we know of marries or has kids with the Martells after Daeron and his sister that Martell blood would start to fade, and as each generation goes by without the Targs mating with the Martell that blood would fade more and more with each generation, so by the time Aerys marries Rhaella and has Dany, there's literally pretty much no Martell blood left. Once Aegon 5 decided to marry for love and allow his sons to do the same thing it pretty much erased any possible trace of Martell blood that might have been left.

f

i think i may have discovered something new to you since nobody seems to see how this works. the martell blood would dilute if targs married targ/martell kids however targ/martell kids married other targ/martell kids. that doesnt dilute targ or martell. if a targ/martell descemdant married a stark for example, their targ/martell ratio to each other doesn change.

[TheMysteriousOne]

f

i think i may have discovered something new to you since nobody seems to see how this works. the martell blood would dilute if targs married targ/martell kids however targ/martell kids married other targ/martell kids. that doesnt dilute targ or martell. if a targ/martell descemdant married a stark for example, their targ/martell ratio to each other doesn change.

If this is true, what about the amount of First Men and Andal blood that they have? They barely married outside after Aegon III and excluding Daeron, so is that amount of blood still fairly high? I don't think so.

[Jon Icefyre]

f

i think i may have discovered something new to you since nobody seems to see how this works. the martell blood would dilute if targs married targ/martell kids however targ/martell kids married other targ/martell kids. that doesnt dilute targ or martell. if a targ/martell descemdant married a stark for example, their targ/martell ratio to each other doesn change.

Smh I get what your trying to say but the fact of the matter the amount of Martell blood in Daeron and Myriah's firstborn kids would not even be close to the amount Dany would have, and also again there's no way in hell YG as a Blackfyre would have the same amount of Targ blood flowing through him as Dany or Jon, the Blackfyre's had to have diluted their blood as means of survival to avoid house extinction.....

[Stannis Lives]

If this is true, what about the amount of First Men and Andal blood that they have? They barely married outside after Aegon III and excluding Daeron, so is that amount of blood still fairly high? I don't think so.

I think that's a great question. We don't know since we don't know all the ancestral marriages. Their targ to dornish ratio however remains constant.

[Stannis Lives]

Smh I get what your trying to say but the fact of the matter the amount of Martell blood in Daeron and Myriah's firstborn kids would not even be close to the amount Dany would have, and also again there's no way in hell YG as a Blackfyre would have the same amount of Targ blood flowing through him as Dany or Jon, the Blackfyre's had to have diluted their blood as means of survival.....

Yeah. I agree. I was never debating the blackfyre issue. You know how I feel on that front. I was just saying if he's a blackfyre, he has an interesting claim. But if he's targ for true, then he has a better claim than Danny. Either way he's important.

[bbstark]

Aerys II and Rhaella were married, so yes there was Targaryen intermarrying. Let me explain it to you in a simpler way. Let's say that there is a family of black people that have only married people from their own race for hundreds of years. One man decides to marry a white woman and they have biracial children. These biracial children then proceed to marry black people, instead of white people and so do their children, and their grandchildren and so forth until there are only three descendants left, eventually. Are these people as much white as they are black?

ETA: I agree that they have Dornish blood, but nowhere near as much as the Valyrian blood which they possess.

I don't think this argument is actually similar to the situation of the Targs in Westeros. There are several reasons for that.

Let me try to explain:

Firstly, there is only one *source* of Targaryans as opposed to many people posessing the phenotypes that identify them as black. Therefore even if you are biracial (50% black), but marry someone black, your children will be more black than you (75% black). If you are half Targaryan(F=Targ, M=not Targ), and you want to increase your percentage of Targaryanness (apologies for the crude jargon, I am running out of ways to express this ), you would have to marry a cousin who would be offspring of your father's sister and brother.

Furthermore, by marrying just your sibling, you do not increase your offspring's Targ quota.

Think about it this way, if you are 1/4 Targ, you have 1 out of 4 grandparents that are Targ, and you marry your sibling who is 1/4 targ, who also has 1 out of 4 grandparents that are Targs, ignoring for a second the idea that you might have the same grandparents, your offspring will have a total of 8 great-grandparents, 2 of which are Targ, and therefore be only 1/4 Targ.

Conclusion: you have maintained status quo, and only allowed for no more dilution of Targ gene pool; you have not increased the Targ gene pool by marriage of siblings.

I've drawn up a chart for further aid to everybody here: http://imgur.com/kyKiVb3

ETA: mistake in chart, last one should be 1/4

[TheMysteriousOne]

We don't know who Maekar married, we don't know Egg married and we don't know who Jaehaerys II married, so there's a lot of holes in this, which is why I think that it's much more accurate (and safe) to say that the Valyrian blood of House Targaryen far outweighs the amount Dornish blood.

[Stannis Lives]

I don't think this argument is actually similar to the situation of the Targs in Westeros. There are several reasons for that.

Let me try to explain:

Firstly, there is only one *source* of Targaryans as opposed to many people posessing the phenotypes that identify them as black. Therefore even if you are biracial (50% black), but marry someone black, your children will be more black than you (75% black). If you are half Targaryan(F=Targ, M=not Targ), and you want to increase your percentage of Targaryanness (apologies for the crude jargon, I am running out of ways to express this ), you would have to marry a cousin who would be offspring of your father's sister and brother.

Furthermore, by marrying just your sibling, you do not increase your offspring's Targ quota.

Think about it this way, if you are 1/4 Targ, you have 1 out of 4 grandparents that are Targ, and you marry your sibling who is 1/4 targ, who also has 1 out of 4 grandparents that are Targs, ignoring for a second the idea that you might have the same grandparents, your offspring will have a total of 8 great-grandparents, 2 of which are Targ, and therefore be only 1/4 Targ.

Conclusion: you have maintained status quo, and only allowed for no more dilution of Targ gene pool; you have not increased the Targ gene pool by marriage of siblings.

I've drawn up a chart for further aid to everybody here: http://imgur.com/kyKiVb3

Brilliant!! Thank you. Are you a bio professor?

[E-Ro]

snip

WOW! What a beautiful and informative post bb. Thank you so much for taking the time to make that amazing diagram and explain this. Much love brah.

[TheMysteriousOne]

<snip>

Yeah, I've realized that my analogy wasn't very accurate, I should've used a different example. But I completely agree with you, but we don't even know why Jaehaerys, Aegon V or Maekar married.

ETA: Thanks for the chart.

[Jon Icefyre]

Yeah. I agree. I was never debating the blackfyre issue. You know how I feel on that front. I was just saying if he's a blackfyre, he has an interesting claim. But if he's targ for true, then he has a better claim than Danny. Either way he's important.

Ya agreed, and the ironic thing is if the rumors about Daeron ll actually being Aemon's son are true then technically YG as a Blackfyre would have a better claim to the throne than Jon or Dany. But there's no way of proving it and Westeros would probably never believe it so Varys has to have him pretend to be Aegon in order to make sure no one can say they have a better claim than him...

[bbstark]

Yeah, I've realized that my analogy wasn't very accurate, I should've used a different example. But I completely agree with you, but we don't even know why Jaehaerys, Aegon V or Maekar married.

ETA: Thanks for the chart.

Brilliant!! Thank you. Are you a bio professor?

lol no, but I am a scientist, just trying to help out :)

And Mysterious One, I totally see where people get confused, the chart was helpful to me too

WOW! What a beautiful and informative post bb. Thank you so much for taking the time to make that amazing diagram and explain this. Much love brah.

just wanna give a shoutout to my brah Ero! Peace and Love, brah, Peace and Love :D