R+L=J v.54

[Morienthar]

while technically and within the scope of our world, and our nature, you are correct about that, what I was trying to point out in my later posts is that this is not what GRRM actually intended. He reminded us in an SSM that Westeros genetics doesn't work like in our world, first and foremost.

And the other thing is, I was using "Targness" not like a genetic marker, but more like an ethnicity. Like if you're mostly French, except for one great grandmother that's German, how much German are you? That's a better analogy.

The only reason it's even significant is because of the way the Westerosi viewed the Targs. It appears as if they thought of them as purely Targ because of the intermarriage. I was only pointing out that mathematically that's impossible.

Hope this helps.

Yep,I as I said you achieved what you set out to.

You explained perceived bloodlines very well.

[greenseer57]

MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS

so here is my view, rhaegar may or may not have loved lyanna, i like to believe he did as i have no reason to think he didnt, if you have a reason not to remember that rhaegar took up fighting after reading books, most likely because he read the prophecy and saw himself as the promised prince and for him lyanna would be the ice in the song of ice and fire, or even both togheter.now after the whole harrenhal tournament and the queen of love and beauty story everyone one says lyanna was kidnaped, well i think not. if you look for it you can find (have no book with me cant quote) that lyanna was not as in love as robert and she knew he would mostly hore-up through their life, she talked to ned and all, and she didnt want him, think of it as a gatsby thing, he gives the world to her but cant see she doesnt really care that much for him which would make her run with her true love rhaegar, seeing that ned says she was wild, kinda like arya and would just go for it, or by second theory rhaegar told her his tale and beliving to be the ice part she went by will.Now GRRM makes it clear there is low info flow in medieval times so if ravens didnt get there until it was too late rhaegar could not know the events of rebellion and lyanna would not go since she would be preggo , prob from rhaegar sice they could be having an affair (explains why she would cry when he sang at the tourney) .My view of the events would also suggest the reason rhaegar came to fight instead of hiding or going east was because he wanted no war, so he rode to robert, he took an army cause they wouldnt let him go alone, on the trident rhaegar tries to explain what happened to robert and tells him how they love eachother and married on another, robert full with grief sees the thruth/doesnt belive rhaegar and with fury he slays rhaegar who didnt want to fight, which explains how one of the best to ever handle a sword gets openly hitted in the chest, (implied) off-guard being way faster than his opponent and as good or better, after robert full of shame/no believing rhaegar would say she was kidnapped as he was king no one would say no and rhaegar was dead so they had to believe him. meanwhile ned rides to the tower of joy and finds lyanna in a bed of blood,blood from childbirth, lyanna knowing of all targaryens being slain fears they might kills rhaegars son and asks ned to lie for her, lyanna later dies/goes home with howland reed.I say all this because ned has only seemed to brake his honor by cheating , but why only once, why not more, why does he have a bastard but wont lie because of his honor , why does he not see it tainted, well maybe because jon isnt his , it is just his blood, and ned never really cheated, he wouldnt since he was married.Plus if rhaegar did kidnap lyanna why dorne, why not the capital where all his fathers host would gather eventually , i would belive it because lyanna didnt want to be there or perhaps because they couldnt get married, plus that fact that they went to dorne means to me that he wanted to hide her so as to protect her and his son , why would kidnap and protect her. now you may still not be convinced but it makes sense and there is much evidence here and it is all backed up (imo) by GRRMs view of love will hurt you.

[Alia of the knife]

Rhaegar, like some species of frogs, was asexual. He didn't need Lyanna. She was just his "beard." :drool:

Rhaegar had a beard? :blink:

[Alia of the knife]

lol no, but I am a scientist, just trying to help out :)

And Mysterious One, I totally see where people get confused, the chart was helpful to me too

just wanna give a shoutout to my brah Ero! Peace and Love, brah, Peace and Love :D

You are the first real scientist I've ever seen with a personality, and thanks for the chart- (I may consult you in the future). :P

[Bonesaw]

R+L=J is very possible, when Ned sent him to the Wall he didn't say he was his son, he said he had "his blood" plus the secret Ned and Howland Reed kept. Jon is half Targ, and if known would have been killed by Robert B. For Dany all the signs are there, and I keep thinking "Ice & Fire" so Jon Snow and Dany. Ice, Fire. Question: Who is the 3rd head of dragon? Well, time will tell.

[bobbybuilderton]

Does Barristan have some idea of what might have gone on? I didn't know the theory on my first read through, but I just realized that Dany asks him if Rhaegar wed for love or duty and he hesitates. It could just be that he's choosing his words carefully, but it could also be that he knows he did both.

[Alia of the knife]

Does Barristan have some idea of what might have gone on? I didn't know the theory on my first read through, but I just realized that Dany asks him if Rhaegar wed for love or duty and he hesitates. It could just be that he's choosing his words carefully, but it could also be that he knows he did both.

I think he knows enough, just not about Jon. And he hesitates because he knows Rhaegar married for duty. If he married for love, he wouldn't be uncomfortable relating that to Dany.

[Sordelor]

R+L=J is very possible, when Ned sent him to the Wall he didn't say he was his son, he said he had "his blood" plus the secret Ned and Howland Reed kept. Jon is half Targ, and if known would have been killed by Robert B. For Dany all the signs are there, and I keep thinking "Ice & Fire" so Jon Snow and Dany. Ice, Fire. Question: Who is the 3rd head of dragon? Well, time will tell.

I tought these were, Jon and Aegon. But when you think about it, Jon has the problem that his hand burn in agot and ofcourse that he is dead. So we still don't know who the tird head is.

[Ygrain]

I tought these were, Jon and Aegon. But when you think about it, Jon has the problem that his hand burn in agot and ofcourse that he is dead. So we still don't know who the tird head is.

1)Jon is not confirmed as dead yet

2) Targaryens are not immune to fire http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62101-a-public-service-announcement-the-targaryens-lack-of-immunity-to-fire/

[Nami]

Rhaegar had a beard? :blink:

I think he was clean shaven? Do we have anything about that?

[Ghost's Shadow]

I think he knows enough, just not about Jon. And he hesitates because he knows Rhaegar married for duty. If he married for love, he wouldn't be uncomfortable relating that to Dany.

I kind of want Barristan to survive so he can meet Jon. He might be able to put things together.

[The guy from the Vale]

I kind of want Barristan to survive so he can meet Jon. He might be able to put things together.

I think Jaime putting things together would be, in many ways, even more ironic, considering Jaime's guilt-ridden dream about not protecting Rhaegar's children...

[Stannis Lives]

1)Jon is not confirmed as dead yet

2) Targaryens are not immune to fire http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62101-a-public-service-announcement-the-targaryens-lack-of-immunity-to-fire/

This also goes back to the entire bloodline discussion earlier on this thread. Dany is clearly resistant to fire and as previously discussed is less than 50% targ and probably more dornish. The targs have watered down their bloodlines quite a bit since conquering westeros and fire resistance or immunity could have been passed down sporadically or not at all. Additionally, it does appear as if even in the days of old valyria, that fire resistance was a rare trait. They do discuss the few valerians who were able to master dragons as well as the blowing of the dragon horn to bind to the dragons. It is clearly stated that mortal men can not blow the horn. I would tend to believe that some valyrians were able to successfully blow the horn without fear of burning up while others were also fire resistant to their dragons or it might not have been possible to successfully ride a dragon. You are completely exposed on their backs and they are breathing fire every which way, while their skin is hot to begin with.

[Ygrain]

This also goes back to the entire bloodline discussion earlier on this thread. Dany is clearly resistant to fire and as previously discussed is less than 50% targ and probably more dornish. The targs have watered down their bloodlines quite a bit since conquering westeros and fire resistance or immunity could have been passed down sporadically or not at all. Additionally, it does appear as if even in the days of old valyria, that fire resistance was a rare trait. They do discuss the few valerians who were able to master dragons as well as the blowing of the dragon horn to bind to the dragons. It is clearly stated that mortal men can not blow the horn. I would tend to believe that some valyrians were able to successfully blow the horn without fear of burning up while others were also fire resistant to their dragons or it might not have been possible to successfully ride a dragon. You are completely exposed on their backs and they are breathing fire every which way, while their skin is hot to begin with.

No, she is not.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/945/: "Lastly, some fans are reading too much into the scene in GAME OF THRONES where the dragons are born -- which is to say, it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times."

The dragon hatching was a one-time, magical event. Other cases of fire resistance are only in the show, in the books, at the end of ADWD, Dany has badly blistered hands.

[Stannis Lives]

No, she is not.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/945/: "Lastly, some fans are reading too much into the scene in GAME OF THRONES where the dragons are born -- which is to say, it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times."

The dragon hatching was a one-time, magical event. Other cases of fire resistance are only in the show, in the books, at the end of ADWD, Dany has badly blistered hands.

That's not what I stated. Please reread my post. I did not say she was immune to fire. I didn't even say that targs are fire resistant. I said its clearly a trait that is passed down sporadically. Dany walked out of a burning pyre. She lost her hair but didn't have a scratch. She was seen with flaming hair when she rode off on drogon yet she suffered some blistering. She takes bathes in "scalding" water without a flinch. She clearly has a resistance to fire. Per GRRM, not all targs are immune to fire at all times. That doesn't contradict what I am saying.

[The guy from the Vale]

That's not what I stated. Please reread my post. I did not say she was immune to fire. I didn't even say that targs are fire resistant. I said its clearly a trait that is passed down sporadically. Dany walked out of a burning pyre. She lost her hair but didn't have a scratch. She was seen with flaming hair when she rode off on drogon yet she suffered some blistering. She takes bathes in "scalding" water without a flinch. She clearly has a resistance to fire. Per GRRM, not all targs are immune to fire at all times. That doesn't contradict what I am saying.

Hair burns very quickly, without necessarily harming the skin. So Dany being seen with her hair on fire and surviving doesn't look like fire resistance to me.

As for the Hot baths, this must be proof Catelyn is a secret Targ: She likes her baths hot too.

[Ygrain]

That's not what I stated. Please reread my post. I did not say she was immune to fire. I didn't even say that targs are fire resistant. I said its clearly a trait that is passed down sporadically. Dany walked out of a burning pyre. She lost her hair but didn't have a scratch. She was seen with flaming hair when she rode off on drogon yet she suffered some blistering. She takes bathes in "scalding" water without a flinch. She clearly has a resistance to fire. Per GRRM, not all targs are immune to fire at all times. That doesn't contradict what I am saying.

ORLY? "Dany is clearly resistant to fire" you said in your previous post. What GRRM said, wording it a bit differently, is that she is not.

[Stannis Lives]

Hair burns very quickly, without necessarily harming the skin. So Dany being seen with her hair on fire and surviving doesn't look like fire resistance to me.

As for the Hot baths, this must be proof Catelyn is a secret Targ: She likes her baths hot too.

Wow. You guys take your "targs are not fire resistant" argument very seriously. I feel like I am debating trayvon Martin. The Starks are able to warg and control to some extent their direwolves which are myical creatures like dragons. The Starks and targs are clearly the two bloodlines most prone to magic. At no point am I stating that all targs are fire resistant or fire resistant all the time or all can control dragons. However, I stand fast in my belief that there is fire resistance and a relationship to dragons in their bloodline. I don't believe the lannisters have any control of lions or or the baratheons can control stags, but the Starks and targs have some magic left in them from the old days. This stands with my overarching belief of the merging of these two last remaining magical bloodlines is what forges azor ahai. The song of ice and fire. Jon Snow.

[Stannis Lives]

ORLY? "Dany is clearly resistant to fire" you said in your previous post. What GRRM said, wording it a bit differently, is that she is not.

Agreed. Not sure where GRRM says that Dany is not fire resistant. He said "it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times". That is not the same as "Dany is not resistant to fire".

[The guy from the Vale]

Wow. You guys take your "targs are not fire resistant" argument very seriously. I feel like I am debating trayvon Martin. The Starks are able to warg and control to some extent their direwolves which are myical creatures like dragons. The Starks and targs are clearly the two bloodlines most prone to magic. At no point am I stating that all targs are fire resistant or fire resistant all the time or all can control dragons. However, I stand fast in my belief that there is fire resistance and a relationship to dragons in their bloodline. I don't believe the lannisters have any control of lions or or the baratheons can control stags, but the Starks and targs have some magic left in them from the old days. This stands with my overarching belief of the merging of these two last remaining magical bloodlines is what forges azor ahai. The song of ice and fire. Jon Snow.

Let me put it that way: I fully expect Dany to die from Dragonflame. I even think there's quite a bit of foreshadowing for it.

As for taking this thing seriously, the point is that there have been lots of theories based on that fire resistance even though it is at best ambiguous, and rather unlikely otherwise. The main thing is that some people think Jon can't be a Targ because he got burned, which does raise my hackles considerably.