Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Angalin

R+L=J v.54

Recommended Posts

Ever thought that maybe Lyanna decided to give Rhaegar his third child?

Maybe he didn't went off with her thinking about having a child, but later on when he told her about needing a child a Elia not being able to give birth anymore, Lyana decided to give him one. That would be sweet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I have laid the timeline out, before. You can go research it, but keep in mind that Jaime was 15 at Harrenhal, and 17 when he killed Aerys. That Rhaenys was 2 maybe 3 when she was killed, and her birth had kept Elia bedridden for half a year afterwards. Aegon was a year old when he was killed. It starts mounting up pretty solid that Harrenhal was 24 +/-3 months before the fall of King's Landing. No, Rhaegar's expression changed in Daenerys' vision of him, when he said, "there must be one more."

ETA: If Rhaegar and Lyanna had started an affair prior to marriage, Ned is not going to remember Rhaegar as anything better than a dishonorer. Ned clearly does not.

So you are saying that there was a 24 month gap and therefore enough time for a 9 month birth, correct? That is what i thought but it seemed like people were arguing that there wasn't enough time.

I also think it's extremely important that GoT says "THEY found Ned" in the tower of joy. Ned has expressed it was only Howland Reed who survived ToJ. Therefore, it makes sense that they took her son and his wetnurse. It's also possible that wetnurse was Erick Dayne's wetnurse and R+L, along with Arthur Dayne, could easily have stopped by Starfall to pick up the wetnurse before travelling to ToJ to keep Starfall out of it. Ned probably cooked up the story that it was the wetnurse's child when he got back to Starfall. Maybe Ashara killed herself because she was heartbroken that Ned "cheated" on Catelyn but not with her or she tried to convince Ned to stay at Starfall but he refused. This line of events would tie up everything very nicely and be consistent with the open ends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something that has probably been mentioned before, but...

AGoT, Jon VIII (ch. 60):

The Lord Commander reached up to pinch its beak shut, but the raven hopped up on his head,

fluttered its wings, and flew across the chamber to light above a window. “Grief and noise,”

Mormont grumbled. “That’s all they’re good for, ravens. Why I put up with that pestilential bird... if there was news of Lord Eddard, don’t you think I would have sent for you [Jon]? Bastard or no, you’re still his blood.

Not that it's very significant, but it's something, and I haven't seen it mentioned before. It echoes Ned's line to Cat about Jon being "his blood" while adding (calling into question Jon's bastardy?) the "Bastard or no" part.

ETA: Naturally they already made note of it in the Jon Snow reread project, here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you are saying that there was a 24 month gap and therefore enough time for a 9 month birth, correct? That is what i thought but it seemed like people were arguing that there wasn't enough time.

I also think it's extremely important that GoT says "THEY found Ned" in the tower of joy. Ned has expressed it was only Howland Reed who survived ToJ. Therefore, it makes sense that they took her son and his wetnurse. It's also possible that wetnurse was Erick Dayne's wetnurse and R+L, along with Arthur Dayne, could easily have stopped by Starfall to pick up the wetnurse before travelling to ToJ to keep Starfall out of it. Ned probably cooked up the story that it was the wetnurse's child when he got back to Starfall. Maybe Ashara killed herself because she was heartbroken that Ned "cheated" on Catelyn but not with her or she tried to convince Ned to stay at Starfall but he refused. This line of events would tie up everything very nicely and be consistent with the open ends.

Edric Dayne is a few years younger than Jon. At that point, he hadn't been born yet. When Edric talked about him and Jon being milk brothers he meant that they were breastfed by the same woman, not necessarily at the same time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edric Dayne is a few years younger than Jon. At that point, he hadn't been born yet. When Edric talked about him and Jon being milk brothers he meant that they were breastfed by the same woman, not necessarily at the same time.

What's the difference? I wasnt specifying simultaneously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something that has probably been mentioned before, but...

AGoT, Jon VIII (ch. 60):

Not that it's very significant, but it's something, and I haven't seen it mentioned before. It echoes Ned's line to Cat about Jon being "his blood" while adding (calling into question Jon's bastardy?) the "Bastard or no" part.

ETA: Naturally they already made note of it in the Jon Snow reread project, here.

Mormont seems to use this phrase differently than some of the others. He tells Jon that the price for joining the Night's Watch is that he (Jon) will never "hold a child of your own blood in your arms." This has to mean that Jon won't have a son or daughter, since Mormont knows that Jon may see his own nieces and nephews.

On the other hand, Tyrion says Joffrey is his "own blood," Renly uses it to describe Stannis and Alester Florent says that Edric Storm is Stannis' own blood "and mine as well."

So some people use it to mean son/daughter and some use it to mean relative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mormont seems to use this phrase differently than some of the others. He tells Jon that the price for joining the Night's Watch is that he (Jon) will never "hold a child of your own blood in your arms." This has to mean that Jon won't have a son or daughter, since Mormont knows that Jon may see his own nieces and nephews.

On the other hand, Tyrion says Joffrey is his "own blood," Renly uses it to describe Stannis and Alester Florent says that Edric Storm is Stannis' own blood "and mine as well."

So some people use it to mean son/daughter and some use it to mean relative.

Well, sure, if you mean to deny Jon's legitimacy at every possible turn, I suppose you could ignore the connection between Ned calling Jon "my blood" and Mormont calling Jon Ned's blood; i.e., both specific references to Jon being Ned's blood. Especially since this connection is accompanied by a phrase that calls into question Jon's supposed bastardy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@corbon There is a gap in the timeline of at least nine months between Harrenhal and the taking of Lyanna, to allow for Aegon to be born. I don't see how anyone can object to a nine month winter between.

I don't object to a nine month winter. I 'object' to the thought that it 'must' have been all of those nine months.

Lyanna was offered to Robert at Harrenhal, after the first night, because Robert had more interest in is war of cups than he did for Lyanna. If he was already betrothed to her, and this is the first time he has seen her in a long time, ignoring her would be improbable, even for Robert.

We have to agree to disagree on that one. For one thing, I don't think thats improbable for Robert at all. He never really loved her, never really had any interest in her, just the thought of her. Typical boozy fratboy, as soon as the party starts he goes straight to the cups with his drinking mates, essentially forgetting the girls are there at all. After all, its not like he's gonna have a chance to get a leg over, and there is no 'chase' to speak of, so focus is on the 'now' pleasure. And for another thing, it was the first night of the tourney proper. I very much doubt that was the first time they'd seen each other for a while. Especially as Robert is not hanging out with Ned. Theyprobably arived a few days earlier, and maybe travelled some of the way together as well.

During the conversation, in Winterfell with Ned, it is the day the betrothal is announced, and Lyanna has met Robert, and knows of the bastard he fathered in the Vale, and his proclivities for drinking and whoring.

Right. Which she can all know from previous meetings and/or talking with other people. She knew about Mya, but it doesn't appear that Ned told her. If she knew that, she could know plenty more, enough to form a character estimate without ever meeting Robert - a meeting which I don't believe we can rule out either.

As far as winter being nothing, below the Neck, where is the Vale? It is below the Neck, but they abandon the Eyrie during winter. I am from the PacNW, and lived in LA for an extended period. In the mountains in both places, travel is extremely restricted during the winter. Robert comments on summer snowfalls in the north. When snow is falling travelling on foot or by horse is extremely hazardous, because of the temperature, not the snowfall itself.

Who said it was nothing?

And the Eyrie is a mountain top. They don't abandon the rest of the Vale...

The Riverlands, and the Vale for that matter, Eyrie aside, have very different winter situations. Travel may not be as easy as during summer, but I'm sure it still happens. Even by soft southerners, let alone hardy northerners...

..and isn't this inconsistant?

You say there was a 9 month winter, and that travel even in the riverlands is restricted during winter, yet somehow the Starks travelled from Harrenhal to Winterfell and back during those 9 months?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, sure, if you mean to deny Jon's legitimacy at every possible turn, I suppose you could ignore the connection between Ned calling Jon "my blood" and Mormont calling Jon Ned's blood; i.e., both specific references to Jon being Ned's blood. Especially since this connection is accompanied by a phrase that calls into question Jon's supposed bastardy.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't making any point about bastardy here. I was picking up on your reference to Ned saying Jon was his "blood" and the usual follow on question: does Ned mean "he is my son" or "he is related to me."

I think GRRM has Mormont use it one way (it means son or daughter) while other people use it to mean relative in order to draw attention to the fact that Ned's use of the phrase is ambiguous. Catelyn assumed Ned meant "Jon is my son." The reader knows that Ned might mean something else. In other words, this is a very subtle clue pointing to the possibility that Ned is not Jon's father.

So I was thinking about this in terms of "son" versus "nephew" and not "bastard" versus "trueborn". Sorry for the confusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't making any point about bastardy here. I was picking up on your reference to Ned saying Jon was his "blood" and the usual follow on question: does Ned mean "he is my son" or "he is related to me."

I think GRRM has Mormont use it one way (it means son or daughter) while other people use it to mean relative in order to draw attention to the fact that Ned's use of the phrase is ambiguous. Catelyn assumed Ned meant "Jon is my son." The reader knows that Ned might mean something else. In other words, this is a very subtle clue pointing to the possibility that Ned is not Jon's father.

Fair enough. The point I was trying to make in the OP was that this line is a possible clue that Jon is not a bastard; "Bastard or no... ." With that in mind, your post read as if you were (once again) arguing against Jon's legitimacy, via R+L.

If that wasn't the case, my apologies for the unnecessarily sarcastic tone. But, as it turns out, it was probably worth pointing out why Mormont's use of "blood" is relevant. As opposed to other various uses of the same term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough. The point I was trying to make in the OP was that this line is a possible clue that Jon is not a bastard; "Bastard or no... ." With that in mind, your post read as if you were (once again) arguing against Jon's legitimacy, via R+L.

If that wasn't the case, my mistake. But, as it turns out, it was a question worth answering.

No problem.

I got to thinking about this a few days ago when someone started a thread about "inconsistencies" and "plot holes" premised in part on the idea it was strange that Benjen was in Winterfell for Robert's feast. A number of posters pointed out that Mormont sent Benjen because he was a logical emissary for the Watch to send to Winterfell. I remembered the Mormont quote about Jon never holding a child of his "own blood" in his arms and thought that was wierd because when he said it Mormont had to think that one day a future LC might send Jon as an emissary to Robb. So at first I thought this was an inconsistency. But this is GRRM and he doesn't (usually) do these things by accident -- thus, my conclusion that this was done deliberately.

It's a minor point. But it is one I found interesting and I had not seen it discussed before. I thought you were getting at something similar to my point but I just reread your post and I see now you were coming at it from a different angle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't object to a nine month winter. I 'object' to the thought that it 'must' have been all of those nine months.

We have to agree to disagree on that one. For one thing, I don't think thats improbable for Robert at all. He never really loved her, never really had any interest in her, just the thought of her. Typical boozy fratboy, as soon as the party starts he goes straight to the cups with his drinking mates, essentially forgetting the girls are there at all. After all, its not like he's gonna have a chance to get a leg over, and there is no 'chase' to speak of, so focus is on the 'now' pleasure. And for another thing, it was the first night of the tourney proper. I very much doubt that was the first time they'd seen each other for a while. Especially as Robert is not hanging out with Ned. They probably arived a few days earlier, and maybe travelled some of the way together as well.

You should convince Cersei of this, perhaps she won't hold such a grudge about Robert's exclamation on their wedding night. ;)

Right. Which she can all know from previous meetings and/or talking with other people. She knew about Mya, but it doesn't appear that Ned told her. If she knew that, she could know plenty more, enough to form a character estimate without ever meeting Robert - a meeting which I don't believe we can rule out either.

So, the conversation at Winterfell is after Mya's birth in the same year as the Tourney at Harrenhal is held. They express the timing of the tourney as in the year of the false spring, and true enough, Mya could be born before the tourney, but for word to get back to Lyanna, wherever she is, would take time. The conversation with Ned occurs that day that the betrothal is announced, it only stands to reason that it is after Harrenhal.

It makes sense for Robert to meet, and accept Rickard's proposal, after the first night's merriments, and Robert's war of cups. The announcement was later, at Winterfell, and during the winter.

Who said it was nothing?

And the Eyrie is a mountain top. They don't abandon the rest of the Vale...

The Riverlands, and the Vale for that matter, Eyrie aside, have very different winter situations. Travel may not be as easy as during summer, but I'm sure it still happens. Even by soft southerners, let alone hardy northerners...

Precisely, a mountain top is very cold and dangerous during the winter. Travel is possible, but not taken lightly. There would need to be an urgent need for a person to leave the warmth of his fire and brave the winter winds and snow.

..and isn't this inconsistant?

You say there was a 9 month winter, and that travel even in the riverlands is restricted during winter, yet somehow the Starks travelled from Harrenhal to Winterfell and back during those 9 months?

Not really, you are referring to Brandon travelling to Riverrun to duel Littlefinger? That betrothal announcement was made the following spring, when travel was becoming more easily possible. Littlefinger hears the announcement and challenges immediately. Brandon comes, and does what is necessary, then tells Catelyn he must leave for a short errand. Littlefinger recuperates enought to be transported by litter over the next fortnight. While enroute on his return to Riverrun, Brandon receives a message that has him ride for King's Landing. It sure matches the timeline of nine months or more of winter, following Harrenhal, quite well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see what Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's son brings to the story. One person knows about it and thats Howland Reed, but we haven't seen him in the whole series. (He may have died defending Moat Cailin, he may be bedridden like Hoster Tully was, he may have suffered a huge blow from Arthur Dayne which allowed Eddard to jump in for the kill) The thing is, did Lyanna and Rhaegar marry? If they didn't Jon is still a bastard and a child due to the result of rape. If Howland Reed is alive and well and tells people that Jon Snow is Rhagar's heir (assuming that Aegon is actually dead and this one is a fake) then who is going to believe him? No one, I doubt Jon Snow will even believe him and if Jon did believe him, Stannis will probably kill him, the North men wont support a Targaryen, I don't buy it and I think it is one of the worst theories there is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see what Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's son brings to the story. One person knows about it and thats Howland Reed, but we haven't seen him in the whole series. (He may have died defending Moat Cailin, he may be bedridden like Hoster Tully was, he may have suffered a huge blow from Arthur Dayne which allowed Eddard to jump in for the kill) The thing is, did Lyanna and Rhaegar marry? If they didn't Jon is still a bastard and a child due to the result of rape. If Howland Reed is alive and well and tells people that Jon Snow is Rhagar's heir (assuming that Aegon is actually dead and this one is a fake) then who is going to believe him? No one, I doubt Jon Snow will even believe him and if Jon did believe him, Stannis will probably kill him, the North men wont support a Targaryen, I don't buy it and I think it is one of the worst theories there is.

This is one of the favorite "criticisms" of the R+L=J doubters. But, in fact, it does not reflect poorly upon the theory at all. In actuality, it only serves as an advertisement of their own ignorance.

After reading your poorly supported rant, I do not give a fraction of a fuck about what you "buy." Maybe someone else will though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been waiting for someone to bring this up . I've been reading so many of these posts and w/ knowledge from the books it seems to me that even if the whole R+L=J theory is legit Lord Snow would still be considered a bastard. I mean Rhaegar was married to Elia & Lyanna was betrothed to King Bob which is what made their 'relationship' such a scandal in the first. What would it matter if he's the Bastard of Winterfell vs the Bastard of Dragonstone, unless of course having the blood of the dragon would implicate him in one of these prophecies?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is one of the favorite "criticisms" of the R+L=J doubters. But, in fact, it does not reflect poorly upon the theory at all. In actuality, it only serves as an advertisement of their own ignorance.

After reading your poorly supported rant, I do not give a fraction of a fuck about what you "buy." Maybe someone else will though.

No need to cry over my opinion. I believe that Aegon is actually their son and Septon Lemore is Ashara Dayne. Eddard brought Aegon to Starfall to give Dawn back and also to give Aegon to Ashara because he knew that some Daynes had that Targaryen look. (Look at Darkstar) and then she faked her death and sort out Jon Connington either from Ned's suggestion or her own will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been waiting for someone to bring this up . I've been reading so many of these posts and w/ knowledge from the books it seems to me that even if the whole R+L=J theory is legit Lord Snow would still be considered a bastard. I mean Rhaegar was married to Elia & Lyanna was betrothed to King Bob which is what made their 'relationship' such a scandal in the first. What would it matter if he's the Bastard of Winterfell vs the Bastard of Dragonstone, unless of course having the blood of the dragon would implicate him in one of these prophecies?

Polygamy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No need to cry over my opinion. I believe that Aegon is actually their son and Septon Lemore is Ashara Dayne. Eddard brought Aegon to Starfall to give Dawn back and also to give Aegon to Ashara because he knew that some Daynes had that Targaryen look. (Look at Darkstar) and then she faked her death and sort out Jon Connington either from Ned's suggestion or her own will.

Tears of laughter, and lots of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×