R+L=J v.54

[WhiteOwl18]

I don't understand when people say R+L= is obvious

I was just remembering how, before I read about this theory, I thought that Rhaegar kept the KG in the TOJ so Lyanna could not escape. In the first book we think Rhaegar was a mad guy, and while reading the other books we start to question what's up with this R+L story, because he doesn't seem like an evil person after all, everyone seems to respect the guy

This is what maybe me search more about this subject and led me to find out R+L=J

Yep. It's obvious for us because we come to online forums everyday to discuss it. For casual readers (and they are the majority) it's not obvious at all. For each reader who comes to these forums there are thousands who don't. I assure you that when RLJ is revealed, those readers will be stunned.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Yeah, I must say, for myself, that I was checking up on the forum from before I started reading, and I saw this theory. Therefore I read the first book with it in mind, somewhere, and did see who his parents were from the read.

[Jon Icefyre]

Who does the third belong to? My vote goes to Tyrion :leer: Imagine all his haters when they see him ride back to Westeros on the back of a Dragon! I joke, but Tyrion seems to know more than anyone else about dragons though. Well there's my take on the whole 'dragon has three heads' thing :thumbsup:

Although I love the idea of Tyrion riding a dragon, I think the the third dragon rider will be Bran. If it works out the way I'm assuming(which is a big if), I think Jon will form a natural bond through his old Valyrian blood with one the the remaining two dragons Dany has not rode. But I think since Bran doesn't have the same old Valyrian blood as Dany and Jon, he'll make up for it by using his warg/greeseer ability to fully control one of Dany's dragon as well...

[Ygrain]

Continuing my re-read: Arya is too wild and needs to be schooled in the ways of the southern courts. IMHO, a hint that Lyanna needed the schooling, as well. Can't wait to see where she was schooled. Harrenhall has been suggested many times, but do we have any other options? Certainly not KL itself, that would have been reflected in Ned's PoV, not Riverrun, for the same reason.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Continuing my re-read: Arya is too wild and needs to be schooled in the ways of the southern courts. IMHO, a hint that Lyanna needed the schooling, as well. Can't wait to see where she was schooled. Harrenhall has been suggested many times, but do we have any other options? Certainly not KL itself, that would have been reflected in Ned's PoV, not Riverrun, for the same reason.

Looking at a map, the only place I can imagine besides what you mention is Dorne. There is no evidence of such EXCEPT for the fact that R+L ended up at the ToJ. But consider- the Starks had already formed marriage alliances with the Riverlands and the Stormlands. They had a fostering alliance with the Vale. Somehow I can't see them getting cozy with the Westerlands/Lannisters or Reach/Tyrells. Which leaves Dorne. Lyanna would have met Elia and Ashara at HH, which could have served as her introduction to their culture, and we have yet to have a POV from Dorne other than Arianne (a mere child, and a foolish one at that) Because it would neatly explain her presence in Prince's Pass and possibly add some further relevance to Darkstar per our discussion a few threads ago, I'll go further out on the limb and suggest Starfall.

[HtheHound]

Although I love the idea of Tyrion riding a dragon, I think the the third dragon rider will be Bran. If it works out the way I'm assuming(which is a big if), I think Jon will form a natural bond through his old Valyrian blood with one the the remaining two dragons Dany has not rode. But I think since Bran doesn't have the same old Valyrian blood as Dany and Jon, he'll make up for it by using his warg/greeseer ability to fully control one of Dany's dragon as well...

Totally agree! I can't really see anyone else being able to control the dragons besides Jon and Bran.

[Jon Icefyre]

Looking at a map, the only place I can imagine besides what you mention is Dorne. There is no evidence of such EXCEPT for the fact that R+L ended up at the ToJ. But consider- the Starks had already formed marriage alliances with the Riverlands and the Stormlands. They had a fostering alliance with the Vale. Somehow I can't see them getting cozy with the Westerlands/Lannisters or Reach/Tyrells. Which leaves Dorne. Lyanna would have met Elia and Ashara at HH, which could have served as her introduction to their culture, and we have yet to have a POV from Dorne other than Arianne (a mere child, and a foolish one at that) Because it would neatly explain her presence in Prince's Pass and possibly add some further relevance to Darkstar per our discussion a few threads ago, I'll go further out on the limb and suggest Starfall.

Well we do get a few Areo Hotah Pov chapters as well. :P But ya I see your point.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Well we do get a few Areo Hotah Pov chapters as well. :P But ya I see your point.

Ooh... Forgot about him! But of course, you know what I meant- Dornish people who might have knowledge or clues to impart ;)

[SeeingGreen]

Personally, I also think that, in the end, there won't be an IT for anyone to sit on.

Agreed.

[Ravencrow]

Agreed.

Furthermore, at the end, no one will care about the legitimacy of a king. There is more important things. I believe in R+L=J, but I don't think it will have such a great impact.

[Jon Icefyre]

Ooh... Forgot about him! But of course, you know what I meant- Dornish people who might have knowledge or clues to impart ;)

Ya, I really hope GRRM gives us a Darkstar pov that sheds a little more light on the TOJ. Also I really wish we could have gotten at least one Maester Aemon pov chapter before he died, I would've loved to read his thoughts about Jon...

[Alia of the knife]

Looking at a map, the only place I can imagine besides what you mention is Dorne. There is no evidence of such EXCEPT for the fact that R+L ended up at the ToJ. But consider- the Starks had already formed marriage alliances with the Riverlands and the Stormlands. They had a fostering alliance with the Vale. Somehow I can't see them getting cozy with the Westerlands/Lannisters or Reach/Tyrells. Which leaves Dorne. Lyanna would have met Elia and Ashara at HH, which could have served as her introduction to their culture, and we have yet to have a POV from Dorne other than Arianne (a mere child, and a foolish one at that) Because it would neatly explain her presence in Prince's Pass and possibly add some further relevance to Darkstar per our discussion a few threads ago, I'll go further out on the limb and suggest Starfall.

That's a good theory

And since both the North and Dorne, (corrected auto-corrects "Former" for Dorne), are considered. "foreign" due to Westerosi prejudices, they have something in common.

Also, if DS was eight, he would remember what Lyanna looked like, he will also know who both Arya and Jon are.

On the subject of classical references, Romeo and Juliette were also driven by misinformation that contributed to their deaths.

If Sansa stays with Tyion, or does end up with Sanford, it evokes the legend of Beauty and the Beast. Neither Sanford, or Tyrion will become handsome, but Sands will have evolved to see beneath the surface.

Edit: I hate typing on a phone.

[direwienerdog]

I have looked at a lot of theories of who will reveal JS true identity. Some suggest Howland Reed or Bran's ability to use weirwood trees to look back in time and see the events of R+L=J. I'm not sure who else the theories conclude are suspects and I'm sure what I'll say next has been put forth. After all this is version 54.

What if it isn't one person or persons who reveal Jon lineage. Jon being knifed at least four times appears dead. I have heard the theories about Mel redirecting him with the kiss of life and others where his body is put in cold storage or Bran intervenes.

The one thing most agree on is Jon wargs into Ghost's body and then one of the above things happen.

Why would anyone of the NW put the body into cold storage when they think Jon is dead? At the Wall the NW burn the bodies of the dead so there is no chance of coming back with black hands and blue eyes. A Wight.

What would happen if they try to burn Jon's body and it won't burn ala Dany and the dragons eggs? Like I said I'm sure someone has brought this theory forth I may have missed it. We are on #54 after all.

[corbon]

Looking at a map, the only place I can imagine besides what you mention is Dorne. There is no evidence of such EXCEPT for the fact that R+L ended up at the ToJ. But consider- the Starks had already formed marriage alliances with the Riverlands and the Stormlands. They had a fostering alliance with the Vale. Somehow I can't see them getting cozy with the Westerlands/Lannisters or Reach/Tyrells. Which leaves Dorne. Lyanna would have met Elia and Ashara at HH, which could have served as her introduction to their culture, and we have yet to have a POV from Dorne other than Arianne (a mere child, and a foolish one at that) Because it would neatly explain her presence in Prince's Pass and possibly add some further relevance to Darkstar per our discussion a few threads ago, I'll go further out on the limb and suggest Starfall.

That seems to be a huge looking-at-map failure? Its a big map, with a *lot* of places. Why the heck would she go all the way down south? What purpose does it serve? Why would the people she met first at HH have anything to do with where her father sent her for her informal education process (which would have been decided well before ToH surely!)? Why send her to the one place that fits least, in terms of culture, morals, etc, with the rest of the country?

I should have thought, if not the Riverlands, the Stormlands, or somewhere with easy access to them, would have been ideal. That way she gets to start forming those relationships and background knowledge that will be critical for her in her future role as Lady of the Stormlands. And not be turned from one sort of foreigner (to her future family and vassals) into a different sort of foreigner.

[Alia of the knife]

Ya, I really hope GRRM gives us a Darkstar pov that sheds a little more light on the TOJ. Also I really wish we could have gotten at least one Maester Aemon pov chapter before he died, I would've loved to read his thoughts about Jon...

I know GRRM said there will be no additional POV's, but are there any POV's where there may be a mystery Narrator?

[Jon Icefyre]

I know GRRM said there will be no additional POV's, but are there any POV's where there may be a mystery Narrator?

I could still definitely see there maybe being a Darkstar Prologue in WOW, either way it would still be interesting to see if Darkstar actually does know something extra about the TOJ that hasn't been revealed yet... Also a mystery narrator would be interesting indeed!

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

That seems to be a huge looking-at-map failure? Its a big map, with a *lot* of places. Why the heck would she go all the way down south? What purpose does it serve? Why would the people she met first at HH have anything to do with where her father sent her for her informal education process (which would have been decided well before ToH surely!)? Why send her to the one place that fits least, in terms of culture, morals, etc, with the rest of the country?

I should have thought, if not the Riverlands, the Stormlands, or somewhere with easy access to them, would have been ideal. That way she gets to start forming those relationships and background knowledge that will be critical for her in her future role as Lady of the Stormlands. And not be turned from one sort of foreigner (to her future family and vassals) into a different sort of foreigner.

Ygrain asked a hypothetical question, having already ruled in and out several locations. I provided a hypothetical answer with admittedly no real textual evidence in support of it, but based on a broad interpretation of the Seven Kingdoms and what Lord Rickard's "Southron Ambitions" might entail (ie forging ties with as many of the southern regions as possible) I perceived a pattern that Lord Rickard's alliances were being made only at the highest levels in various regions and analyzed the map with all of that in mind. Not to mention taking into account the unexplained fact that Lyanna was found in Dorne at the end of her life. Rather than HH playing a role in the decision of where to send her as you suggest, I suggest that the fact that Lyanna was bound (hypothetically) for Dorne may have played a role in deciding her attendance at HH, where she would be able to meet two of the most highborn young ladies of the region, one of whom happened to be the Crown Princess. Also, we know nothing of the prevailing culture at Starfall, as by all accounts the Daynes are of different stock than the Martells and may have quite different traditions than the more Rhoynish ruling family.

Feel free to disagree with my speculation (which was after all given in response to another poster's request for speculation...) but there's really no need to be so dismissive!

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I could still definitely see there maybe being a Darkstar Prologue in WOW, either way it would still be interesting to see if Darkstar actually does know something extra about the TOJ that hasn't been revealed yet... Also a mystery narrator would be interesting indeed!

Yep, although I'd hate to see a DS prologue if it meant what a prologue POV usually means :o

Maybe the DS information could be conveyed through his (future) interaction with an existing POV character?

I surely hope he has something to tell us, it would seem like a waste of a mysteriously interesting character otherwise.

[Jon Icefyre]

Yep, although I'd hate to see a DS prologue if it meant what a prologue POV usually means :o

Maybe the DS information could be conveyed through his (future) interaction with an existing POV character?

I surely hope he has something to tell us, it would seem like a waste of a mysteriously interesting character otherwise.

:agree:

[Alia of the knife]

I could still definitely see there maybe being a Darkstar Prologue in WOW, either way it would still be interesting to see if Darkstar actually does know something extra about the TOJ that hasn't been revealed yet... Also a mystery narrator would be interesting indeed!

I just notice that in the beginning of the series, you have the chapters specifically named, (i.e., Eddard, Jon, Cersei, etc.), but then later, the chapters tended towards having "titles,' (i.e., "Queen Maker," "The Soiled Knight,"etc,), so maybe that makes room for DS to end up being a Narrator, though not specifically of the chapters I just named, but future ones.

Yep, although I'd hate to see a DS prologue if it meant what a prologue POV usually means :o

Maybe the DS information could be conveyed through his (future) interaction with an existing POV character?

I surely hope he has something to tell us, it would seem like a waste of a mysteriously interesting character otherwise.

I agree as well.

It hardly seems fair that Jaimie got his POV's to explain his nature, giving him a redemptive arc, but not someone like DS who really is no different.

That the RV thought DS poison may mean that DS is a poison to the Martells.

And to clarify now that I'm on my laptop, I think the idea that Lyanna could have gone to Starfall also potentially opens up a path for Brandon and Ashara to have more of a history prior to HH as I don't think that relationship between the Starks and the Daynes just sprung up over night.

The casual behavior between Brandon and Ashara where he cozens her into dancing with Ned, though subtly written feels like there is more of a back story there beyond HH as Ladies in those days, even Dornish Ladies didn't just "hang out" with men.

That they come from vastly different parts of the Kingdom than the rest of Westerosi and face the same prejudices, an easy bond would be found I'd think and I imagine too that being a Waiting in Lady to the Crown Princess, and having some experience at Court would help give Lyanna polish.

And as far as "bonding" goes, I'm not sure that Robert was that refined, so I don't know that Lyanna could damage, or insult his people all that much.

I would also say that it is true that "membership" has it's privileges and being a member of the Ruling House, and what they can get away with in terms of behavior may be very different than their Bannerman's behaviors, so the manners in Starfall may actually be more reserved.