Is there any hope for the adaptation of Stannis in Season 4? (TV and Book Spoilers)

[The Mondrian Oak]

It has become beyond idiotic how people keep mentioning Stannis killed Renly. He effing had to. Why do you all ignore the fact that Renly already planned on killing Stannis on the morrow? Why? Just to further your own ridiculous points or what?

People who defend Stan aren't being crybabies just because they object to horrid ridiculous reasoning. Stannis had to have Renly killed, else Renly would kill him. It baffles me how this argument even exists.

Well, I believe the way he killed him lacked a tiny bit in honor, don't you agree? Of course, when the odds are against you, you find another way to turn them in your favour. Stannis was outpowered by Renly, and meeting him in the field would have meant certain death. Still, sending a shadow demon to cut your brother's throat at nightime is filthy at the least. Stannis is not the shining instance of purity.

[Joyful Union]

It has become beyond idiotic how people keep mentioning Stannis killed Renly. He effing had to. Why do you all ignore the fact that Renly already planned on killing Stannis on the morrow? Why? Just to further your own ridiculous points or what?

People who defend Stan aren't being crybabies just because they object to horrid ridiculous reasoning. Stannis had to have Renly killed, else Renly would kill him. It baffles me how this argument even exists.

I think you've conveniently forgotten the fact that Stannis lay siege to Storm's End in the first place, engineering the situation in which it was kill or be killed.

[Pepi]

Stannis has always been about justice (not honor, as Ned was). In other words, he's always been about the ends, not the means. Executing a traitor Renly in that particular case was justice. From that point of view it doesn't really matter, how he killed. Less so that he was his brother. But that has been said ∞ times alrdy.

[The Mondrian Oak]

Stannis has always been about justice (not honor, as Ned was). In other words, he's always been about the ends, not the means. Executing a traitor Renly in that particular case was justice. From that point of view it doesn't really matter, how he killed. Less so that he was his brother. But that has been said ∞ times alrdy.

It is often the means that turn justice into butchery. Look at the RW. Walder Frey needed justice for an osthbreaker, but he went for butchery. Same thing with Stannis and Renly. Justice and honor are intertwined. Anyhow, yes, Stannis had to get rid of Renly. But the way he dealt with it is a filthy stain on his curriculum vitae.

[Broken Fox]

I have no problems with what he did to Renly. In this case, the ends justify the means. He prevented the deaths of thousands of soldiers, and even gained a few in the process.

Renly was being a pain in the ass.

[Toxspecific]

Well, I believe the way he killed him lacked a tiny bit in honor, don't you agree? Of course, when the odds are against you, you find another way to turn them in your favour. Stannis was outpowered by Renly, and meeting him in the field would have meant certain death. Still, sending a shadow demon to cut your brother's throat at nightime is filthy at the least. Stannis is not the shining instance of purity.

So killing a guy you have no chance of killing with conventional means and who is going to soon kill you hence ending your life is dishonourable? Where's the honour in killing your own brother after stealing his right, with a 10 ratio 1 sized army? The 'the way he did it was bad' argument is very, very senseless.

[The Mondrian Oak]

So killing a guy you have no chance of killing with conventional means and who is going to soon kill you hence ending your life is dishonourable? Where's the honour in killing your own brother after stealing his right, with a 10 ratio 1 sized army? The 'the way he did it was bad' argument is very, very senseless.

Renly had no honor whatsoever. And Stannis did what he had to do, through filthy butchery. Which was what he needed, but still filthy butchery. Others would have given the whole thing a second thought, he did not. RIGHTLY SO. Still, a kinslayer butcher. His rightful sense of justice does not make him less of that.

And please, mate, don't add stuff to what I say. I never said Renly was honorable.

[Pepi]

It is often the means that turn justice into butchery. Look at the RW. Walder Frey needed justice for an osthbreaker, but he went for butchery. Same thing with Stannis and Renly. Justice and honor are intertwined. Anyhow, yes, Stannis had to get rid of Renly. But the way he dealt with it is a filthy stain on his curriculum vitae.

Yeh, I agree. It was nasty business, I can't dispute that, but so are the burnings. All of those things being just means to a noble (allegedly) end. And as said, means do not really matter as far as Stan is concerned (except for when his own (usually post mortem) or Davos' conscience kicks in). Gotta say, tho. Stannis is my favorite character in the whole saga ... but I tend to refrain from judging him. As a reader (from a completely different era), you can't really judge a character. Especially a non-POV character. I mean ... what would you do? Would you swallow your brother's treason and support him? Would you hit him with a smaller army? Would you use sorcery and sacrifices, if they were your last options. Makes you wonder, really, what's right and what's wrong. :D

[The Mondrian Oak]

Yeh, I agree. It was nasty business, I can't dispute that, but so are the burnings. All of those things being just means to a noble (allegedly) end. And as said, means do not really matter as far as Stan is concerned (except for when his own (usually post mortem) or Davos' conscience kicks in). Gotta say, tho. Stannis is my favorite character in the whole saga ... but I tend to refrain from judging him. As a reader (from a completely different era), you can't really judge a character. Especially a non-POV character. I mean ... what would you do? Would you swallow your brother's treason and support him? Would you hit him with a smaller army? Would you use sorcery and sacrifices, if they were your last options. Makes you wonder, really, what's right and what's wrong. :D

I agree. The whole thing is complicated. BUT. Stannis raised Davos to lordship for saving the day and shortened his fingers for being a smuggler. If he were to judge his own actions, what would he do? "A good action does not erase a wrong one". He brought justice to a traitor, but had his own blood treatcherously murdered. If you think about it, his case his VERY similar to Davos's. Being a smuggler was what was needed, but still a crime. For Stannis, being a kinslayer was needed, but still a crime. How would he judge himself?

[Pepi]

He obviously won't judge himself (wouldn't be the first time his actions could be interpreted as hypocritical), but someone else might. At some point. It was fleshed out in the show more (than in the book), but I think in the end he's fully aware of consequences and is ready to embrace them. Although I'm not sure he considers the execution of Renly a sin (which kinslaying is). I'm not even sure he should consider it. Because the law of the land clearly states; the penalty for treason is death.

[Toxspecific]

Renly had no honor whatsoever. And Stannis did what he had to do, through filthy butchery. Which was what he needed, but still filthy butchery. Others would have given the whole thing a second thought, he did not. RIGHTLY SO. Still, a kinslayer butcher. His rightful sense of justice does not make him less of that.

And please, mate, don't add stuff to what I say. I never said Renly was honorable.

I know you didn't say it, I just want to emphasize what a douche Renly was even further.

And okay, Stan gets the kinslayer label. But its an empty, meaningless label at this point, you know, kind of like Ned was technically a traitor to the Targaryen dynasty of the Iron Throne. That kind of empty, meaningless label.

[The Mondrian Oak]

I know you didn't say it, I just want to emphasize what a douche Renly was even further.

And okay, Stan gets the kinslayer label. But its an empty, meaningless label at this point, you know, kind of like Ned was technically a traitor to the Targaryen dynasty of the Iron Throne. That kind of empty, meaningless label.

True, but do you recall people losing control when Jaime killed Alton, in the show? I believe kinslaying is actually a bit of a serious matter in Westeros. Many argued that kinslaying made Jaime look like a monster. Is that also true for Stannis, or is there a double standard? What do you think about it?

[Wilbert]

I know you didn't say it, I just want to emphasize what a douche Renly was even further.

And okay, Stan gets the kinslayer label. But its an empty, meaningless label at this point, you know, kind of like Ned was technically a traitor to the Targaryen dynasty of the Iron Throne. That kind of empty, meaningless label.

I read the books once and relatively quickly but, according to my understanding, kinslaying is one of two "mortal" sins according to old and new gods (next to harming your guest).

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Kinslaying

I think this is what makes the events of the War of 5 Kings so repelling. There were numerous rebellions in the history of Westeros but if you disrespect those 2 rules, you've got no honour.

[Weeping Sore]

True, but do you recall people losing control when Jaime killed Alton, in the show? I believe kinslaying is actually a bit of a serious matter in Westeros. Many argued that kinslaying made Jaime look like a monster. Is that also true for Stannis, or is there a double standard? What do you think about it?

If Renly's killing was indeed a just execution, why didn't Stannis send out ravens to everyone declaring that he had executed the traitor Renly Baratheon, and all other traitors should expect the same? The fact that Stannis has not taken public responsibility for the killing speaks volumes.

[Masamune]

I think you've conveniently forgotten the fact that Stannis lay siege to Storm's End in the first place, engineering the situation in which it was kill or be killed.

Renly did that the moment he declared himself King over his older brother.

[Wilbert]

And what was Robert's claim to the throne? His warhammer. So if Renly was more efficient building up the army that goes along the same line.

[Pepi]

Stannis went through a hard decision ... and chose his brother over his king. Renly, on the other hand, thought he was fabulous and shoved his older brother on the side. And gathering army (the way Renly does it) is arguably not much better than using magicks.

[Toxspecific]

If Renly's killing was indeed a just execution, why didn't Stannis send out ravens to everyone declaring that he had executed the traitor Renly Baratheon, and all other traitors should expect the same? The fact that Stannis has not taken public responsibility for the killing speaks volumes.

Because he isn't going to send ravens around the Seven Kingdoms for every traitor that he killed?

"Stannis update: traitor number 4567 has been exterminated. Bend the knee!" Plus he sent out a shitload of ravens when he declared rebellion.

True, but do you recall people losing control when Jaime killed Alton, in the show? I believe kinslaying is actually a bit of a serious matter in Westeros. Many argued that kinslaying made Jaime look like a monster. Is that also true for Stannis, or is there a double standard? What do you think about it?

This is pointless. First of all, Jaime did that in the show and not the books. Secondly, of course I think it was a pretty fucking nasty thing to do (just tell Alton to play dead, damn you!).

Show Jaime killed Alton, some dude who was his relative, who admired him and who never wronged him. Stannis killed Renly the dishonourable dude trying to usurp his brother's Throne.

[Vympel]

Re: kinslaying - distance matters. Some random third cousin once removed whose mother you don't even know doesn't really rate.

[YouSnowNothing]

True, but do you recall people losing control when Jaime killed Alton, in the show? I believe kinslaying is actually a bit of a serious matter in Westeros. Many argued that kinslaying made Jaime look like a monster. Is that also true for Stannis, or is there a double standard? What do you think about it?

The Jaime/Alton thing is actually very different. I think people wildly overreact to it when looking for reasons to discredit the show. Alton was Jaime's third cousin twice removed or something similar - it wasn't specified, except that Alton was from a very minor branch of the Lannisters, and that he was so distantly related to Jaime that he didn't even know who he or his mother was. It's clear that kinslaying is a great crime in Westeros, but it's also not clear where the line of "kin" is drawn. I doubt Jaime's killing of Alton would remotely count as "kinslaying" in Westeros. Certainly nobody calls Robert kinslayer, even though Rhaegar was his second cousin (in fact he is possibly his first cousin in the show - Jaeherys II does not exist in the show's canon, so it is unclear where Rhaelle, Robert's grandmother, fits in).

But, back on topic, I think that Jaime is not guilty of kinslaying, while Stannis is. But it's interesting to consider these two characters together. They have very different philosophical outlooks, and yet end up in similar situations. Jaime recognises that it's impossible to reconcile two contradictory oaths - such as protecting your king above all else, but also protecting your family above all else. Stannis is also caught in the same contradiction twice - when Robert rises against Aerys, and when Renly rises against Stannis. One time he chose his family, and found no reward. That slight left him bitter and distrustful, and so when the next time comes around, he chooses what he percieves as his duty and obligation to the realm. While Jaime, when stuck between a rock and a hard place tends to fall back on personal morality, Stannis relies on the law, or some other power that he deems higher than himself and his own whims. But neither character can win whichever way they choose - they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Duty to family or, duty to the crown and realm? There's no easy answer, and so while Stannis' murder of Renly was a crime, I'm not sure it was wrong.