Stannis = Pink Letter (+ TGNC) = Dead Stannis?

[lmgross25]

I think that the letter is a test. The northens have heard what jon is doing with the wildings and they will not be happy about it but they will understand that with dead things in the wild it is better to have a bunch of living wildlings on their side of the wall then all those dead coming back to fight for the others and yes they sent the hill tribes to put an eye to him. Then there is the letter it's self, everytime that ramsey writes a letter it's written in blood he sent a wedding announcement to the wall written in blood, I don't think with as angry as he sounds in that letter and having 6 women's blood to write in and the king beyond the wall's blood i dont think he could or would pass up the oppunity to lower his enemies just a little more. The letter is not his, all the information in the letter would have been known by Mance, Stannis and Theon, and or northern men once they talked to Theon after excaping from the bastard. I say the letter is a test because they want to make sure that he is not only strong, but competent and lastly they want to know that he has the belly to do what needs to be done and that he will not shrink from his duty. Bartheron or Bolton it should make no matter to him but he want's the Boltons's and Frey's to pay for their deceit, and I do think that Jon has the belly to go Tywin Lannister on them and route out every Frey and Bolton tie in the north.

[lmgross25]

There are some other things that you guys haven't considerd. Those men that rode with Ned to get Lyanna back out of all of them to go the only one's to return were Howland Reed and Ned. The only bones that Ned made sure to bring home where those of Lyanna's. Nobody saw the bodies of others. Tyrion lannister made sure to send Ned's bones to the son but not ice, Jamie made of point of mention Cleos to his parents and saying that when the war was over the would go and fetch home his bones. He even thinks that with the war on bones are in easy supply. So Ned who takes the trouble of getting Dawn back to Starfell and the horse back to Dustin don't you think that he could have made sure that they got back their bones as well. Hell starfell wasn't that far from the Tower of Joy. If Ned was to shy to ask Ashara Dayne to dance what makes you think he would have the guts to dishonor his new bride by sleeping with someone else. My thought is this that Dayne and Whent aren't dead. That they made a pact to keep Jon safe. That if ever he had need of them they would be his proctetors, I mean Dayne was Rheagar's bestfriend and the one he left to protect the woman he loved. I think only the thought of jon's brain's being dashed against a wall is what made Dayne and Whent lay down their swords and plegde to be there if ever he had need of them. The kettleback's father's name is oswell, and so was whent's I don't think that can be consquence. Also Jon if he really is Rheagar's son he needs someone by his side that can teach him about the man that his father was and why he stole is mother. who better than the men that were by his and her side the entire time. With the howland reed getting the will and word that robb is dead. It was time for someone to let jon in on what is really going on. Reed's place is not in the wall or in the north he is needed in the neck to keep a watch on what's coming up the neck. Also if the GNC is correct then once the battle is done the northern men can call a great concil and make plan for how to heal the north. They may even talk about giving the crown to Rickon but they would have to know that it is strengt that is needed not a child but they also know that Rickon will be needed to train to rule as Jon's heir. The letter is their invitation to winterfell and claim his birthright. He is Robb's older brother and as Tyrion said of Cersi all it takes it that you come into the world first. As soon as Robb made him legitimate he in away almost removed himself from the claim to winterfell. Jon is the oldest and if that isn't enough to convince you then think about the fact that Jon's wolf was the Alpha of the pact. Arya when jon gives her needle makes note of the fact that out of all the wolfs Jon's was the biggest and nymeria when ghost enters the room show subservice to Ghost even thought she is the alpha female, lady was the runt of the litter. It was always ment for Jon to rule he has been groomed and even if he isn't a Targarny he is still being shaped for command not because it's his birthright to rule but because he's choosen to rule. The north has the right to reject Jon they could even try to name Rickon, but I think they will choose to make him king. which is even more powerful

[I S**t Gold]

There are some other things that you guys haven't considerd. Those men that rode with Ned to get Lyanna back out of all of them to go the only one's to return were Howland Reed and Ned. The only bones that Ned made sure to bring home where those of Lyanna's. Nobody saw the bodies of others. Tyrion lannister made sure to send Ned's bones to the son but not ice, Jamie made of point of mention Cleos to his parents and saying that when the war was over the would go and fetch home his bones. He even thinks that with the war on bones are in easy supply. So Ned who takes the trouble of getting Dawn back to Starfell and the horse back to Dustin don't you think that he could have made sure that they got back their bones as well. Hell starfell wasn't that far from the Tower of Joy. If Ned was to shy to ask Ashara Dayne to dance what makes you think he would have the guts to dishonor his new bride by sleeping with someone else. My thought is this that Dayne and Whent aren't dead. That they made a pact to keep Jon safe. That if ever he had need of them they would be his proctetors, I mean Dayne was Rheagar's bestfriend and the one he left to protect the woman he loved. I think only the thought of jon's brain's being dashed against a wall is what made Dayne and Whent lay down their swords and plegde to be there if ever he had need of them. The kettleback's father's name is oswell, and so was whent's I don't think that can be consquence. Also Jon if he really is Rheagar's son he needs someone by his side that can teach him about the man that his father was and why he stole is mother. who better than the men that were by his and her side the entire time. With the howland reed getting the will and word that robb is dead. It was time for someone to let jon in on what is really going on. Reed's place is not in the wall or in the north he is needed in the neck to keep a watch on what's coming up the neck. Also if the GNC is correct then once the battle is done the northern men can call a great concil and make plan for how to heal the north. They may even talk about giving the crown to Rickon but they would have to know that it is strengt that is needed not a child but they also know that Rickon will be needed to train to rule as Jon's heir. The letter is their invitation to winterfell and claim his birthright. He is Robb's older brother and as Tyrion said of Cersi all it takes it that you come into the world first. As soon as Robb made him legitimate he in away almost removed himself from the claim to winterfell. Jon is the oldest and if that isn't enough to convince you then think about the fact that Jon's wolf was the Alpha of the pact. Arya when jon gives her needle makes note of the fact that out of all the wolfs Jon's was the biggest and nymeria when ghost enters the room show subservice to Ghost even thought she is the alpha female, lady was the runt of the litter. It was always ment for Jon to rule he has been groomed and even if he isn't a Targarny he is still being shaped for command not because it's his birthright to rule but because he's choosen to rule. The north has the right to reject Jon they could even try to name Rickon, but I think they will choose to make him king. which is even more powerful

The thing you aren't considering there is Ned's approach to honour. By entering into a conspiracy with Ned those members of the Kingsguard immediately become oathbreakers. According to his code Ned then has to behead them with his own sword. Ned has a zero tolerance approach for all that shit.

[Russo]

If the North were planning to turn on Stannis they wouldn't have sent Davos to get Rickon. We as a reader know Davos won't hurt him, but the North doesn't. They don't know how long Davos will take to get him. What are going to do when they have defeated the Boltons with Stannis but Davos hasn't returned yet, and Stannis wants to March on Moat Cailin? How long will they continue the ruse waiting for Davos? They wont turn on Stannis whilst Rickon may be in Davos possesion

[lmgross25]

when ned was in the black cells he was talking to Robert and he was sorry for lying to him and his lady wife. When thinking about Jon all he could do was hang his head in shame and he was told cersi that he have made his mistakes and not taking the Iron throne was not one of them. Also ned was counting on his rep as being an honest man to make the realm swallow that bull about jon being his. Remember it's rude to ask about a man's natural children. It was the best protection in the world because as a bastard he can't claim in land's in his own right, as a bastard Jon is harmless, to Robert and his family as well as protecting his own family. Stannis no man would question Ned's loyality, ned didn't raise up against Averys because of Lyanna he did it because of him killing his father and brother. Ned know his sister and Robert both and he knew that if Lyanna really didn't want to go with Rheagar she would have found away out or died trying. While talking to Bran he told him that Ser Arthur Dayne was the finest knights in the realm. Even if he did almost kill him. Ned expected that the three at the Tower of Joy to have already bent the knee. They would have still been up holding his vow, by protecting Jon from the shadows. This was the best situation for everyone. Their king was dead, so where the known heirs, if they had popped up protecting somebody else, that would have raised suspection. No Dayne and Whent are still alive, look at this Whent were the last heirs to HarrenHal before the five kings war, oswell is in the Vale with the new lord of HarrenHal, plus look at it this way if whent is who I think he is that would explain, why Jaquen was first headed to the wall, and now why he's in oldstown in the company of Sam. Littlefinger knows that Jon could upset many of his plans and it even works for why he made Sansa is bastard. Hidden in plain sight.

[lmgross25]

I just thought of something else to prove my point about the faceless man, Petyr knowing and lastly about Jon being in plain sight. at the meeting where robert wants Dany dead, petyr makes mention that a faceless man way to expensive, and for a princess i shudder to think. Jaquen was already in the cell. He was hired by littlefinger, to kill jon. Remember this whole game was set into motion because littlefinger moved robet to name a new hand. He would know that the boy was headed for the wall. How would he know because it was him who sent the myr looking glass and he has agents in the north. ON official duty. Plus they Lyanna and company were in dorne. Mantell would be a rather poor lord if he didn't know what his own people where doing in his land. His prince's pass warden was only a hop skip and a jump away and the Daynes also, Doran doesn't think about Jon because he can't get to him, and even if he could the realm thinks of as a bastard. Lastly if he named Ned a liar he would look the fool because it was his sister and he had no men there and who would challenge Ned Starks word he's the most truthful man in the seven kingdom's besides Davos

[I S**t Gold]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. We have Ned's principles from his own head. We have a guy who was beheaded because he didn't have the guile and cunning to pull of a plot like this. One lie to Robert and his lady wife is not the same as breaking an oath. We see first hand from Ned's own thoughts how he feels about Jaime Lannister, and how he feels about Barristan Selmy, and we know it's all true because he had no reason to lie to himself. He respected honour. If Ned says Arthur Dayne was one of the finest knights in the realm, firstly he's talking in the past tense, and secondly given everything we know from Ned in terms of his values I'd take that as a hint that Dayne died upholding his vows, or Ned wouldn't be talking about him in such glowing terms.

For me we read Jaqen differently too. I don't think Jaqen was on the way to the wall, I think something interfered with his plans and the evidence for this is that he needed to be rescued, was grateful for being rescued and also that Jon Snow is still alive. A faceless man would get the job done. If he couldn't another Faceless man would take his place. He wouldn't just change direction at the first little setback on the way. All Littlefingers comment about Faceless men tells you is that he knows how much they cost, there is no evidence he even knows who Jon is. We don't know what Littlefinger's plans are.

Forgive me but you make a lot of assumptions. We don't know what Littlefinger knows, we don't know whether he has spies on duty in the reach, we don't know what Martell knows, we have no evidence that either of them have any interest whatsoever in Jon.

[aryagonnakill]

It seems to be a serious stretch that Baelish could possibly know who Jon is, and then it is completely illogical to hire a fm to kill him, no sense whatsoever in that statement. If Jaqen was headed to the wall, it was to look in the library.

[lmgross25]

Yeah the reason he couldn't stand Jamie was because Jamie betrayed the man he swore to protect, think about what robert said, if he hadn't done it would have fallen to one of us. Ned thinks we weren't of the kingsguard. Ned swore no oath's to Rheagar or any other Targ. He only became lord of winterfell because the heir was murdered. Think about this Ned and Robert didn't raise their banner until after Rickon and Brandon were dead. Jon Arryn and Robert could have raised their banners anytime they wanted to. They were lords in their on right. They didn't even think about raising their banners weren't until Aery's called for their heads. The war was never about Lyanna and what Rheagar"did" to her it was to stop a mad man. Dayne doesn't strike me as a stupid man, who is he dying for, Lyanna is ned's sister, they share blood, with her husband dead, where else would she go? Then there's Jon if that's the case family can protect family, He can uphold his vow better alive than dead. By making jon a bastard he is giving jon the best protection in the world. It's rude to ask after a man's natural children. And a man that is know as honorable might not want to speak the lie or go along with the decepection but will do things for their children that they would never do for themselves. Also Howland reed was there, Ned doesn't even remember anything after giving promise. Then think about Jamie Lannister he worshipped Dayne, thought he was a better Knight and man then he would ever be. He talks about Dayne the way the Sansa dreams of tall, gallant knights. Dayne was the deadliest of the seven, a better fighter than the kingslayer could ever hope to be. But when Jamie faught Ned in the streets he had no fear of the man. If Ned was so big and bad that he killed Dayne, he would have been a legend. Yet it's not even talked of. Nobody wanted more war and if Dayne and company didn't stand a side and tried to raise Jon up as King, a child king is the bane of any house, Jon wouldn't rule in his own right. No the best think protect Jon from the shadows. Littlefigners has contacts all over the seven kingdoms. Traders, merchants, tax collectors.... Littlefinger set this whole game into motion. It was him that had arryan killed, it was him that futhered the tentions with the knife, that caused cat to imprison the imp. It was Lf that allowed ned to be imprisioned.Littlefinger has been the silent viper the whole time, pushing people to do things, withouth them even knowing that their doing it. Tyrion offered Harrenhal, but got taken back, he plotted away to get out of Kl teat with Highgarden and then had Harrenhal, reinstated so he could marry Lysa. That was only part of the plan but he needed a great seat to be able to marry and have the type of independent power that he needed

[Agravayne]

Really it was Stannis that set the game in motion. Stannis discovered or guessed that Joffery, Tommen and Myrcella were not Robert's children. Stannis, not being stupid, realized that Robert would never believe him, so he sets out to convince the only person Robert would trust -- Lord Arryn. Once LF has Lord Arryn poisoned, Stannis slips away and starts raising swords and sails while simultaneously putting himself out of the Lannisters' reach (he thinks Cersei had Arryn murdered).

As we know now, Illyrio and Varys have been plotting to restore the "Targaryens" using Khal Drogo, Jon Connington and the Golden Company. I'm not really sure what they had in mind for Lord Stark, Stannis, Renly and King Robert. Perhaps they felt that the Dothraki and Golden Company would defeat Robert in the field. Personally, I have my doubts that would succeed. They did talk about pitting the Lions against the Wolves -- that was easily enough accomplished by LF so one assumes that Varys had a way as well.

LF had risen about as high as he could hope for during peace. Would a Targaryen restoration improved his fortunes? Perhaps, perhaps not. IMHO, LF had quite a bit to loose, as many Great Houses would have been happy to fill the Master of Coin slot in repayment for supporting the Restoration. Appropriating Stannis' and Varys' plans and making them his own benefitted him far more. Genial, wealthy, skilled at Master of Coin, while lacking swords of his own and too low born to be a threat to the Great Houses he was in a position to provide wealth and favors to whomever seemed likely to win.

As for Dayne being alive still, I don't believe it. Dayne was a great knight, but only 2 living men and 1 babe returned from the Tower of Joy. Neither Eddard or Howland Reed are much for boasting. Also, Ned attacked the 3 Kingsguard Knights there with 7 men. Also, Ned does have a relatively high reputation as a General because of his leadership during Robert's Rebellion and as a Warrior because of the Tower of Joy. Lannister had no fear of Ned because his own men outnumbered Ned's significantly and Jamie was very good with a blade.

[Joe Pine]

Really it was Stannis that set the game in motion. Stannis discovered or guessed that Joffery, Tommen and Myrcella were not Robert's children. Stannis, not being stupid, realized that Robert would never believe him, so he sets out to convince the only person Robert would trust -- Lord Arryn. Once LF has Lord Arryn poisoned, Stannis slips away and starts raising swords and sails while simultaneously putting himself out of the Lannisters' reach (he thinks Cersei had Arryn murdered).

Which is fair enough for Stannis, but had he got to a common position with Renly or led Ned through what he discovered, he could possibly have taken the Iron Throne through Robert's last will with the help of the New King's Hand and backing of his brother. It's a 'what if' situation and no doubt Ceresi had something up her sleeve had there been an alternate way events ran out.

As we know now, Illyrio and Varys have been plotting to restore the "Targaryens" using Khal Drogo, Jon Connington and the Golden Company. I'm not really sure what they had in mind for Lord Stark, Stannis, Renly and King Robert. Perhaps they felt that the Dothraki and Golden Company would defeat Robert in the field. Personally, I have my doubts that would succeed. They did talk about pitting the Lions against the Wolves -- that was easily enough accomplished by LF so one assumes that Varys had a way as well.

In that sort of scenario, a combination of Robert, Ned, Stannis and Renly could be strong enough combination, possibly with Riverlands and Vale backing.

I suppose the Westerlands and Dorne would sit out that sort of conflict, backing Viserys surely would seem crazy to them.

LF had risen about as high as he could hope for during peace. Would a Targaryen restoration improved his fortunes? Perhaps, perhaps not. IMHO, LF had quite a bit to lose, as many Great Houses would have been happy to fill the Master of Coin slot in repayment for supporting the Restoration. Appropriating Stannis' and Varys' plans and making them his own benefitted him far more. Genial, wealthy, skilled at Master of Coin, while lacking swords of his own and too low born to be a threat to the Great Houses he was in a position to provide wealth and favors to whomever seemed likely to win.

Agree, Littlefinger needed to chaos of the war of the five kings, he's one of the few to benefit from it.

As for Dayne being alive still, I don't believe it. Dayne was a great knight, but only 2 living men and 1 babe returned from the Tower of Joy. Neither Eddard or Howland Reed are much for boasting. Also, Ned attacked the 3 Kingsguard Knights there with 7 men. Also, Ned does have a relatively high reputation as a General because of his leadership during Robert's Rebellion and as a Warrior because of the Tower of Joy. Lannister had no fear of Ned because his own men outnumbered Ned's significantly and Jamie was very good with a blade.

I'm not in favour of Dayne suddenly reappearing. He's a Kingsguard until death. Ned offered the option not to fight when he outlined the previous events to the Knights at the ToJ, I can't see him flip flopping and then going into hiding. More honour in doing him what Barristan did. Ned isn't the sort to scheme either.

As for Ned and Jaime. A one on one sword fight would tip in favour of Jaime. Ned fails in not having enough guards around him whilst in KL. Tyrion doesn't make that mistake as Hand, always his own guard.

[George W. Lannister]

In the WoIaF app, it states that Ramsay did indeed send the letter. There's no "supposedly" or "reportedly" to put the statement up in the air. Just a straightforward "Ramsay sends a letter to the Wall...".

[Joe Pine]

In the WoIaF app, it states that Ramsay did indeed send the letter. There's no "supposedly" or "reportedly" to put the statement up in the air. Just a straightforward "Ramsay sends a letter to the Wall...".

Wasn't there a letter previous to the pink letter?

[George W. Lannister]

Yes there was a previous letter, but the app states clearly that this letter was written after Reek and Fake Arya escape, demanding them back.