Jump to content

Analyzing the analyses: Categorical investigation of demographics


Mladen

Recommended Posts

This thread is dedicated to one important thing. How our POV influences our reading and how that possibly changes what might be the message of ASOIAF. We will lightheartedly discuss analyses, POVs and threads that have influenced our reading and changed the perspective. Those who want will give us some demographic data, so we could use it to create, if it's possible, the prophiles of certain character's fan. With all these information, we could create a great research about readership of ASOIAF, but not just that, then also to widen the perspective as we can, with as many POVs we could gather, and therefore have richer reading experience.

For the beginning, I will start with short analyses of POVs we have for some characters. This can serve as starting point for the future contributors, and wide analysis of the work you have seen and you think influenced you a lot.

1. Starks

We are all Stark men on this forum, and therefore we are all biased towards this family. Rare are those that don’t wish the best for the wolves of Winterfell. Their honor is legendary, even though some of them had done some questionable things. But we all forgive them everything. Our loyalty sometimes brings the best out of us, and sometimes we are dedicated in thinking the most gruesome end of those that harmed our heroes. No matter who you are and where you come from, loving Starks is inevitable.

2. Lannisters

To cheer for this family is to discover some pretty dysfunctional relationships of your own. There are two paths you can take, you can either love them or hate them, but one thing is certain – no one is indifferent to them. Their honor is questionable at least, and that’s why they are so delicious characters. They provoke most heated arguments and people rarely agree upon anything. Except the fact that what Jaime did to Bran was really bad.

3.Targaryens

You may have joined this forum with illusions about Targaryen being fire proof; immune to all diseases except of mental ones, and that they are rightful heirs of the IT. In short period of time, you’ll be proven wrong and then you’ll turn to real heroes – Starks. Any theory you read about Targaryens, except of Jon’s parentage is crackpot at least. Those that like Targaryens are usually closer to that what is mystical and magical, rather than political.

For the end of this OP, let me clear two things:

1. This isn't chat thread. I will personally report to mods each member that use this thread for something other than what's the purpose of this thread. So, unless you don't have something new to add, don't post here.

2. Stay positive. Criticism is allowed only when you are not insulting someone or their work. Let this be positive thread with some great conclusions we could gather. Any insult will also be immediately reported to mods.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I do try to enjoy the Lannisters but I find it hard to become a Lannister fanboy when I'm all-Stark biased :P

The Greyjoy POVs lead me to to think that they're all foolish whackjobs, though Theon being half-Stark himself makes it easy to sympathize with (in DwD) while Vic, even considering how much of a primitive-minded fool he is, is still superbadass and even has small bits of "honor" himself.

Dany's POVs are not exactly the most enjoyable imo, but they get the job done. She still has much productive info to deliever to us. Her struggles in ruling Meereen seem far more realistic than any other and at least that part seems good enough to me.

Finally, about the Martells, well...except for Doran. they are all very much tempered and it's interesting to learn that despite their isolation in such lands, they still understand how the game is played (like the Starks/northerners but far more tempered, wiser and less hardened).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Greyjoy POVs lead me to to think that they're all foolish whackjobs, though Theon being half-Stark himself makes it easy to sympathize with (in DwD) while Vic, even considering how much of a primitive-minded fool he is, is still superbadass and even has small bits of "honor" himself.

I think people like Greyjoys due to ruthlessness, piracy and general lack of inhibitions... look at how we analyze them. Asha is the only one that is good. Aeron is fanatic, and that always leads to discussions about religion... As for Balon, he is one crazy man obsessed with grandure (puts a perspective to Theon's suffering of decapitation :))... As for Vic and Euron, these two are so lovable...

Dany's POVs are not exactly the most enjoyable imo, but they get the job done. She still has much productive info to deliever to us. Her struggles in ruling Meereen seem far more realistic than any other and at least that part seems good enough to me.

And who says books need to be enjoyable. I would agree on productive ways of Daenerys, but that hasn't led her anywhere. Supporters of Daenerys are waiting for her to make a move in right direction, and she constantly is doing the oposite. Quite interesting how GRRM lets us longing for her arrival, even though we know hell will break loose...

Finally, about the Martells, well...except for Doran. they are all very much tempered and it's interesting to learn that despite their isolation in such lands, they still understand how the game is played (like the Starks/northerners but far more tempered and less hardened).

I mean, one thing you can't deny them... They are versatile. From pity we feel for Elia, to awesomness of Oberyn and Doran's mind-blowing Game, you have to love them. The prophile of their fan must be person with some personality disorder, but somehow it all works. No one would ever deny anywhere that what Oberyn did was one great act of coolness... I mean, Oberyn died for our sins...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there was some discussion around this idea a few months ago and a poster went so far as to create a poll in order to corellate a person's demographic profile with their preference and interpretation of the characters of asoiaf. however, it proved to be a more difficult task than was originally thought and was abandoned. i'm curious to see how this one goes.

as for my thoughts on the povs you've listed:

starks. i don't agree that everyone on the forum is a stark man but i do agree that most posters are usually stark fans or they are fans of one or more of the starks. the difference, imo, is a blind loyalty to the stark family vs a look at individual characters to decide who we identify with or prefer. i fall in this camp and do not fly the stark banner but have several starks as part of my preferred character list. i don't think that loving the starks is inevitable and don't forgive them everything.

lannisters. i agree with you here: one is usually not indifferent to the lannisters. with the lannisters, i find a more cohesive "family" than the starks - although not as much as the tyrells - even if they are incredibly dysfunctional. my reason for this is that the lannisters have similar goals and ambitions and function more as a unit toward the same end rather than toward individual things, most of the time! many lannister actions are done for the glory of the family whereas the starks show very little of that. starks are a family because most of them tend to believe in the same things. lannisters are a family because they tend to want and do the same things. however, the lannisters are one fucked up group of people and justify many of the story's worst acts (which coincidentally belong to them) as "a necessary thing that had to be done." i don't agree with many of their acts and i don't forgive them for their brutality. but each of them are interesting in their own right and the family is very entertaining.

targaryens. you show a great deal of bias in your description of this family. i did not have targaryen illusions. i believe the targaryens are fascinating as a family. they were the ruling dynasty in the grand tradition of the egyption pharaohs and like the pharaohs, believed their rule to be divine. their dragons were the nuclear weapons of westeros and allowed them to do pretty much what they liked. of course there was no way that could last. the last targaryens are the ones i'm most familiar with: viserys, danaerys and to a lesser degree, aerys and rhaegar. it's interesting that this family claims to be fire and blood and yet it is love and entitlement that seems to define the ones i know best. love motivates rhaegar and led to a full rebellion. love is critical to danaerys' story as she turns a union that could have been a nightmare into a loving marriage that allows her to grow as a woman and khaleesi/queen. and finally, viserys is a combination of love and entitlement as he is both the provider and nurturer for baby dany when he is no more than a child himself as well as the abuser of dany by believing she is his tool to sell as he attempts to regain the throne. and both aerys and rhaegar allow their belief of entitlement to lead to bad decisions that lost them the throne. the targaryens have all the glory and tragedy of the emperors of old. reading about them is never boring for me and i find dany's good and bad decisions a normal part of learning to be a queen considering she's had the worse formal education and must learn "on the job." there's bound to be a period of trial and error. sadly those errors have real and devastating implications, though. ultimately i do not think dany will succeed in bringing the targaryens back to the throne and anticipate her being viewed as the villian by westeros historians when all is said and done. still, i love her story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

snip

Wow, great analysis, Nissa...

I mean, people are biased towards Starks, and the fans don't allow them to be bashed. They are easily lovable, except for Catelyn and Sansa, who in some weird way seem to be quilty for every misfortune that has ever come to their family. Especially with that monologue Cat had on TV show, people actually think she is to blame for all that happened only because she didn't love 'an innocent child'

As for Targaryens, the quantity of silly posts about them can be only measured by quantity of crazy Targaryens. I mean we rarely read deep, meaningful analysis about them. The obsession with dragons has taken the best of us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't tend to judge people on what Houses they come from, but what they do. Therefore I like both Daemon Blackfyre and Baelor Breakspear, Ned and Jaime.

Targaryens

The Starks are just as magical as the Targaryens if not more so. The 6 children had huge dire wolves at their beck and call and can warg into animals. Bran is becoming a god with powers far greater than anyone else in the series. If people are drawn to magic then it is to the Starks. Looking at your analysis, you are basing things on the initial appearance of the characters. However, once we read more into the story things begin to change. People may like the Targaryens, because they like the familiarity and continuity of a dynasty reigning for 300 years. They may not like change. The Targaryens are also the most filled out family. We know more about there family tree than others, so people are more likely to become attatched. After all the Targaryens are Eggs descendants or Aegon's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mean, people are biased towards Starks, and the fans don't allow them to be bashed. They are easily lovable, except for Catelyn and Sansa, who in some weird way seem to be quilty for every misfortune that has ever come to their family. Especially with that monologue Cat had on TV show, people actually think she is to blame for all that happened only because she didn't love 'an innocent child'

yes, most fans do think of the starks as the heroes and are extremely loyal to them but cat and sansa get a lot of bashing. there was another thread that discussed this so i won't say anymore than i think that grrm meant to create a bit of conflict and have some real character growth for sansa but he didn't count on first impressions being so lasting. even though everyone knows how the saying about first impressions goes. and yes, despite what threads may say or not say, cat's big crime is not loving one of the favorite characters in the story. but on the whole, the starks are loved by fans to the point that they are more than happy for every frey to die, including the unborn ones, preferably as painfully as possible, and ignore the fact that neither ned or robb would ever have wanted that. :dunno:

As for Targaryens, the quantity of silly posts about them can be only measured by quantity of crazy Targaryens. I mean we rarely read deep, meaningful analysis about them. The obsession with dragons has taken the best of us.

if grrm writes anything after asoiaf is finished it will probably be about the targaryens. they are crazy, fierce, have dragons and come from a far away land. i really like them and hope grrm does get around to writing about them. i agree, there is not enough meaningful analysis about them. perhaps that will be rectified soon. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't tend to judge people on what Houses they come from, but what they do. Therefore I like both Daemon Blackfyre and Baelor Breakspear, Ned and Jaime.

Targaryens

The Starks are just as magical as the Targaryens if not more so. The 6 children had huge dire wolves at their beck and call and can warg into animals. Bran is becoming a god with powers far greater than anyone else in the series. If people are drawn to magic then it is to the Starks. Looking at your analysis, you are basing things on the initial appearance of the characters. However, once we read more into the story things begin to change. People may like the Targaryens, because they like the familiarity and continuity of a dynasty reigning for 300 years. They may not like change. The Targaryens are also the most filled out family. We know more about there family tree than others, so people are more likely to become attatched. After all the Targaryens are Eggs descendants or Aegon's.

So, every analysis about Targaryens will inevitably lead to continuation of 300 year-old practice of their reign? Not mentioning, that magic element is far stronger in analysis about Targaryens. Yes, people will debate wolves, but Stark characterization is much more discussed than Targaryens. For Targs, dragons are usually what we associate them with, and Starks have much deeper conotation about it... Therefore, people interested in Targaryens are usually younger with wilder imagination...

but on the whole, the starks are loved by fans to the point that they are more than happy for every frey to die, including the unborn ones, preferably as painfully as possible, and ignore the fact that neither ned or robb would ever have wanted that. :dunno:

Yes, we don't care what Ned or Robb would want. We became so involved with these characters that they are like our family...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the Starks for the magic and Honour.

what did the starks do that was magical? there was bran the builder who apparently involved magic in the wall and now the stark kids and their direwolf. anything else?

I don't like the Targs because I think they are the usurpers.

what did the targs usurp? they united westeros so there couldn't have been any usurping going on then and they are trying to regain control of westeros after being ousted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

what did the starks do that was magical? there was bran the builder who apparently involved magic in the wall and now the stark kids and their direwolf. anything else?

what did the targs usurp? they united westeros so there couldn't have been any usurping going on then and they are trying to regain control of westeros after being ousted.

The First men in general fascinate me,Their connection to the CoTF,The Starks are a major influence in First Men culture,The Last Hero was probably a proto Stark too.

The Targs usurped six Kings not one,They were and still are outsiders who never completely understood westeros apart from a few individuals like Bloodraven and Jaehaerys i.

They also went to great lengths to make sure they remained as outsiders,Never fully ingratiating themselves into westrosi culture and that doesn't sit well with me,reminds me too much of the early colonial stories my Great Grandma used to tell me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Targs usurped six Kings not one,They were and still are outsiders who never completely understood westeros apart from a few individuals like Bloodraven and Jaehaerys i.

They also went to great lengths to make sure they remained as outsiders,Never fully ingratiating themselves into westrosi culture and that doesn't sit well with me,reminds me too much of the early colonial stories my Great Grandma used to tell me.

conquering each kingdom is not usurping them. i agree that they remained "different" from the rest of westeros but i think it was a strategy to keep them "special". i think it supports they're belief that they are gifted and, yes, superior. but i think it's more like how royalty kept themselves apart from the masses than the thinking of colonizers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Bob can be called Usurper so can they,Yes I know it seems prejudiced.

but the only one who calls bob a usurper are the targaryens! in their eyes, he is the one who took the throne from them and a case can be made for that since there were targaryens alive after the rebellion that were not guilty of the crimes of aerys who could have assumed the rule of westeros with a regent, of course. viserys and his family (i think his mom was still alive at the time) never bent the knee to robert. however, when the targaryens began their conquest, the kingdoms each bent the knee, either after some fighting or without the battles. one way or another, they acknowledged defeat and accepted that there was a new king. that is not usurping.

in any case, robert did become king and no one in the kingdoms called him usurper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Starks

We are all Stark men on this forum, and therefore we are all biased towards this family. Rare are those that don’t wish the best for the wolves of Winterfell. Their honor is legendary, even though some of them had done some questionable things. But we all forgive them everything. Our loyalty sometimes brings the best out of us, and sometimes we are dedicated in thinking the most gruesome end of those that harmed our heroes. No matter who you are and where you come from, loving Starks is inevitable.

Speak for yourself. Some of us are Bolton fans. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speak for yourself. Some of us are Bolton fans. ;)

Yes, it's interesting how the number of Bolton fans is growing each day... People are finally seeing the right way...

If Bob can be called Usurper so can they,Yes I know it seems prejudiced.

Tale as old as time. Here we have the classic claim/right discussion, with who came first question? Analysis on this one suggest the need of order, and the continuum. As fruitless as the discussion may sound, it discovers a lot about the posters...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I root for some Starks but I don't consider myself a Stark man. I want them in Winterfell at the end (if its Rickon or Sansa as Lord/Lady, King/Queen), but thats because I also want all the great houses still in power. I'm not under the impression that the great houses will get supplanted, but that seems to be uncommon around here.

However, I don't find the Starks the most interesting House as far as the House itself goes. I don't root for their best interests necessarily, especially if it ends up conflicting with Stannis'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, I don't find the Starks the most interesting House as far as the House itself goes. I don't root for their best interests necessarily, especially if it ends up conflicting with Stannis'.

We needed only 17 posts, for someone to reminds us about Stannis... :). Any given analysis about any of the House will durectly lead to Stannis, especially those about Starks. The number of people loving both Houses isn't as small as you would think, since cheering for Stannis doesn't exclude Starks. These two Houses aren't opposites, and people assume they are natural allies the most of times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Taking the opening post's position on the Starks as my premise here, as it largely applies for me, too, so from this pov, my opinion on the Ironborn:

Although I am generally intrigued by the Ironborn culture and history for several reasons (They don't care as much about birth as other major houses cultures do and carrying out rituals including participation on a continent where almost everything is hereditary, at least they used to), I resented the Ironborn basically from the point Balon expresses his plans to invade the north, and that resentment only grew over time.

The reasons for that, besides unconditinal Stark support, are mostly related to some members of the Greyjoy-family, namely Balon and Theon, Aeron as well, while I like Asha, and -to some extend- Victarion, these three are responsible for my hostility towards the Ironborn, mostly it is Balon's hypocrisy and empty talk, second only to Theon's pathetic betrayal.

1) The ironborn take pride in their prowess in battle and their fearsome behaviour, yet they only dare to invade the North when there's scarcely any resistance since the major military strength is below the neck. A huge contrast to their bragging, they're really blinded by their vanity and driven by revenge, for a failure they commited themselves.

2) Theon, Robb sent him to Balon as an envoy, not only a huge display of trust but also the effective annulling of his status as a hostage. And how does Theon repay him for that? By taking part in an attack against the north orchestrated by his father, failing to see that the attack would've been carried out, no matter if he had been released of not. While I'm sympathetic here, to an extend at least, since he wants to prove himself to his alienated father, his attack on Winterfell, despite being done out of desperation and the longing for acknowledgement, is the ultimate betrayal. His biological family has no faith in him, but instead of turning to Robb, who always was close to him and closer than any of his actual family, he invaded Robb's home and imprisoned his brothers, thinking him smart the whole time without realizing that the whole action was total bullshit and he was carrying out a suicide commando. While I pity him, too, the hate prevails in the end.

The funny thing here: although I dont resent the Ironborn culture as a whole I do because of the Greyjoys idiocy and blindness and their betrayals, had they sided with Robb, they might've become my second- or third favorite house overall, but now, they're down there on the lowest step, together with Frey, Lannister and Bolton.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...