total1402 Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Dany dwells a lot about how she has made a city that was once rich poor and its people hungry. Other posters have suggested that the lot of the slaves was better as slaves than when they were free. What I don't understand though, is why they don't turn on her? In any revolution, you usually have a leader brought up by popular support who the people then turn on once that person fails to deliver. Most would say Dany fails disastrously to deliver on either her promise of wealth, a new life and even safety as she refuses to resolve the crisis. Despite this, Martin only talks about the opinions and resistance of the former slaver nobility as Dany tries to appease them. We see how Danys actions have failed with Astapor, but, Dany never ruled Astapor and this novel was about Dany learning to rule Mereen; she was never really responsible for the people of Astapor. Its odd that Martin almost never talks about what the slaves inside Mereen think or what there attitude to the whole situation is. Either he glosses over some real issues or the slaves basically continue with the whole Myhsa thing even though in the real world they would shaken that off long ago. Its a real missed opportunity. We could have seen Dany fail as a ruler and her revolution literally devour its own children as she is forced to put down rioting or even act to protect the slavers she wishes to appease. That could have been a very dark and harrowing thing to happen to Dany. As well as sober her to the realities of how fleeting popularity is. But, instead, Martin focuses on the slavers and Danmys appeasement. If I had to guess, I think that its because Martin wants Dany to leave the slaves of Mereen and for this to be a sad or difficult decision he wants them to still have that whole Myhsa attitude intact. If they don't want her. Its a lot less of an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motley Wearer Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 wall of text ew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 The topic title summarises the main point. The rest is just embellishment. Besides, my gaming computer is weird and doesn't let me use the enter function to add spaces. Don't ask, it just does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Idiots Lantern Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 The slaves don't turn on her because they'd rather be free and poor then enslaved and hungry. For the most part.The people most enraged by her are the freedmen who were once rich because of slavery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 The slaves don't turn on her because they'd rather be free and poor then enslaved and hungry. For the most part.The people most enraged by her are the freedmen who were once rich because of slavery.Most revolutions don't want a return to the status quo either. Case in point, current event sin Egypt. Everybody wanted Mubarak gone and they elected the Muslim Brotherhood in. They failed to manage the economy and people turned on them leading to more mass protests until eventually the army toppled the weak government. Its not too hard to imagine that the slaves would think that a more ruthless man could help the slaves or fight better than Dany. Perhaps theres demagogues calling for war to help Astapor. People spread talk of her making deals with the slavers and selling slaves; which would be easy to construe. It would be very easy for local leaders to rise up and challenge Danys authority. Martin portrays far too rosey a picture in which all of the freed slaves worship Dany as the mother of the revolution and perfectly understand that their lot is tied to hers. This is a very unrealistic scenario and one which plasters over what should be a much more complicated and murky situation for Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherbeef Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 and what would these slaves do after they revolt against Dany? still be free and poor but without a leader to protect them? ask nicely to be slaves again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Martin portrays far too rosey a picture in which all of the freed slaves worship Dany as the mother of the revolution and perfectly understand that their lot is tied to hers. This is a very unrealistic scenario and one which plasters over what should be a much more complicated and murky situation for Dany.Not really, some of the slaves sold themselves back into slavery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 wall of text ew.You think that's a wall of text? You ain't seen nothing mate. That's a short paragraph where I come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djinn Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Because what they wanted was freedom, and that was what she gave them. The lack of prosperity can be attributed to the slavers. Most slaves don't have enough knowledge of economics to really understand whats happening and the slavers are a visible face of opposition, so it's easy to point at them. Besides, her muscle is the Unsullied, and they are beyond such dilemmas. If it were conventional soldiers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravaggio Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Not really, some of the slaves sold themselves back into slavery.Yea, that and we don't really know how the majority of them feel about Dany or if there are pockets that are turning. We only get her point of view on the slaves (for the most part) and I'm not sure she would recognize if they were turning against her.I'm wondering if all these slaves actually expect that they will be going to Westeros with her. I can't see that happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 i actually wondered about this quite a lot myself but i put it to some form of Stockholm syndrome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 and what would these slaves do after they revolt against Dany? still be free and poor but without a leader to protect them? ask nicely to be slaves again?A strong man like Cleon would sieze power. It wouldn't make them better off and would weaken them immensely but why should Martin be assuming that everyone understands the common good and work under Dany as well as put faith in her even when shes losing? That's a very un-martin thing to do surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 You think that's a wall of text? You ain't seen nothing mate. That's a short paragraph where I come from.send him to the land of R+L=J where there are 54 mountains to climb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 I'm wondering if all these slaves actually expect that they will be going to Westeros with her. I can't see that happening.Yeah, not a chance. She will need all the ships for the unsullied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 i actually wondered about this quite a lot myself but i put it to some form of Stockholm syndromeNow Dany kidnapped the slaves, really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 i actually wondered about this quite a lot myself but i put it to some form of Stockholm syndromeDany hasn't been keeping them in a little ant farm she kept on her shelf. They have had time to get used to freedom and Martin even describes them forming businesses which are displacing the old ghiscari guilds. I think they understand they could exist without "mother" and its especially hard to believe that men like Cleon would rise in Astapor but not in Mereen. I just don't believe that they would keep Dany on that pedestal. You don't really need to understand economics to pin your blame for an empty belly on those in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejhawman Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Give them enough time, they will turn on her. Right now, after only a year, things are still very much in play; they have room for hope, and give her a lot of leeway. The real test will be when she announces she has to leave. She will probably offer them a choice to come with her or stay, but for those who stay she will want to leave some sort of government in Meereen that at least looks like it has a good chance of keeping them free. And I expect her leavetaking to be accelerated by Victarion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravaggio Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Yeah, not a chance. She will need all the ships for the unsullied.Exactly, plus the sell swords, horses, dothraki, and supplies... I just don't see it happening. Plus, I think it would probably put her in a bad position tactically landing in Westeros with that large a group of non-fighters (Like when Mormont talks about how they would attack Mance).So either she is going to leave them all in Essos or... what they all die before its a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 Give them enough time, they will turn on her. Right now, after only a year, things are still very much in play; they have room for hope, and give her a lot of leeway. The real test will be when she announces she has to leave. She will probably offer them a choice to come with her or stay, but for those who stay she will want to leave some sort of government in Meereen that at least looks like it has a good chance of keeping them free. And I expect her leavetaking to be accelerated by Victarion...No, I think Martin wants this to be almost a betrayal where Dany turns her back on them. Even if she wins the Battle of Fire at Mereen and they're all "Myhsa, Mhysa" Indeed I think she will leave without a plan for Mereen because the ending of Dance seemed to suggest that she is now determined to go to Westeros as its her destiny. Although why Martin is throwing the dothraki and Voltanese plots in is beyond me as this contradicts that entire ending.... But the reaction will be shock and sorrow. Not anger. Its not a betrayal if they don't want her and hate her guts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Exactly, plus the sell swords, horses, dothraki, and supplies... I just don't see it happening. Plus, I think it would probably put her in a bad position tactically landing in Westeros with that large a group of non-fighters (Like when Mormont talks about how they would attack Mance).So either she is going to leave them all in Essos or... what they all die before its a problem?Ideally, she leaves them in Essos, with slavery being outlawed, and Slavers Bay being turned into a non-slave based economy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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