Why don't the freed slaves turn on Dany for impoverishing them?

[total1402]

The "free" cities is actually a bit misleading. Most are slavers with the exception of Pentos and Braavos as I understand it.

[Nictarion]

The "free" cities is actually a bit misleading. Most are slavers with the exception of Pentos and Braavos as I understand it.

That's true, I know Volantis has slaves. I meant Slavers Bay could be turned into a non-slave based economy.

[caravaggio]

Ideally, she leaves them in Essos, with slavery being outlawed, and Slavers Bay being turned into a non-slave based economy..

I just don't see that happening either unless she plans on leaving half her army there to protect the former slaves and enforce her new laws.

[N/A]

Now Dany kidnapped the slaves, really?

Dany hasn't been keeping them in a little ant farm she kept on her shelf. They have had time to get used to freedom and Martin even describes them forming businesses which are displacing the old ghiscari guilds. I think they understand they could exist without "mother" and its especially hard to believe that men like Cleon would rise in Astapor but not in Mereen. I just don't believe that they would keep Dany on that pedestal. You don't really need to understand economics to pin your blame for an empty belly on those in charge.

that's why i said form of but that was probably too far and vague not the best use i understand but

here's what i meant in meereen they feel special because they think she chose to stay with them and govern them (little did they know...)

there for creating a feeling in them that she cares a great deal ( she kinda does ) and she's the mother of dragons so she'll find a way because as total 1402 said they are mostly uneducated and they could easily believe in myths like that but so i think this is there link to her

but surely with time they would have started to see that this dragon queen really doesn't have a solution and things would keep getting worse until the bubble bursts (and to add the fact that she drove them to war and has no way of protecting them and the armies are actually showing up at there door step) people stop believing and the already weak link that chained them to her would break

i dunno how this will play out because like total 1402 has said george kinda forgot this part and when she does return she would have a dragon and possibly a khalasar at her back kinda like Gandalf and rohan at helm's deep so she would be viewed as the hero that has come back to save them and all will be forgotten and again they will shout for their "mother"

[Blede]

The "free" cities is actually a bit misleading. Most are slavers with the exception of Pentos and Braavos as I understand it.

And Pentos is only "slavery free" in theory:

"Choose among my servingwomen. None will dare refuse you."

"Slaves ?" the dwarf asked pointedly.

[Description of Illyrio] "Slavery is forbidden in Pentos, by the terms of the treaty the Braavosi imposed on us a hundred years ago. Still, they will not refuse you."

Regarding this thread's question, the slaves don't turn on Dany because Yunkai starts its war on the freed cities the second she conquers Meereen. External threats (real or imagined) always make wonders in solidifying revolutionary leaderships.

[Nictarion]

I just don't see that happening either unless she plans on leaving half her army there to protect the former slaves and enforce her new laws.

Hard to say what Slavers bay will look like after the battle for Meereen.

[total1402]

Well, actually the terror happened when France was threatened by every power in Europe and they executed or went through quite a few leaders and governments. It certainly didn't happen at Astapor either.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The Free Cities are called such due to the fact they are independently governed. Not because of slavery. :rolleyes:

[65536ob]

The "free" cities is actually a bit misleading. Most are slavers with the exception of Pentos and Braavos as I understand it.

the free cities get their name because they are independant

[Mad Monkey]

Did Daenerys really promise them food or wealth? I think all she gave them was all she could have given them -- the chance to shape their own destinies. Some of the former slaves try to get themselves bought back into slavery. Many others found themselves working like slaves for starvation wages. If you look at the history of the US after it abolished slavery you see the same things happening. Did the former slaves all turn against Lincoln for emancipating them? No, of course not. Because there's something to be said for being able to take your destiny into your own hands. Even if it doesn't work out, even if it ends up being materially less than what you had before, at least it's yours.

That doesn't mean that there won't be anger. That doesn't mean that everything will be perfect in a year or ten or even a hundred years. But the idea that it's somehow unrealistic that the slaves haven't risen up against Daenerys and put the Great Masters back in power is silly. It doesn't make sense and it's not supported by historical patterns. At worst, they might lose their affection for Daenerys over time but that doesn't equal a counterrevolution.

(If anything, the coming war may actually bond the freedman support for Daenerys's government even more. People make a deal about how Daenerys is disliked for being a foreign barbarian, but the same dynamic holds true for the foreign sellswords that are encircling the city. The freedmen are just as likely to resent and despise the Yunkai and their allies from Volantis and Qarth just as much as they resented Daenerys sacking their city; worse, for the freedmen the only benefit that the Yunkish victory can offer them is renewed captivity -- something that they theoretically could have gotten by selling themselves back.)

[total1402]

The slaves would rise up to put what they thought were better and stronger leaders in power than Dany. Not to put the old masters back in power. Theres no real reason or justification given for why Astapor is like this with leaders cycling rapidly and Dany never encounters these problems from her slaves. Surely they have taken their destiny into their own hands as well, but those former slaves are killing each other and forming factions and fighting in the streets? Its an inconsistency on Martins part and its very unrealistic. She promised them a better life. Dany laments that she has made their situation worse. Yet, Martin neglects to carry this further and consider the consequences of the freed slaves resenting Dany for this.

[Mad Monkey]

They may do that, but not necessarily right now. It takes time to build up civil institutions to the point where you can replace them. Remember, much of Daenerys's power is bound up in her person; she commands the Unsullied, she commands the sellsword companies, she commands the khalasar of Dothraki. If they tell her, "Hey, piss off," and she leaves, she'll take all of her host with her, leaving only the shavepates and Brazen Beasts behind. Most importantly, she'll take the dragons too, and the dragons are the reason why all of the forces arrayed against Meereen are even willing to consider negotiating with the city -- they believe that Daenerys is another Valyrian dragonlord, capable of raining hellfire upon them from the sky if the situation becomes that desperate. Most of the people in the city seem to think that Daenerys still has that ultimate trump card up her sleeve. (Brown Ben Plumm's reason for defecting was explicitly that he believed that she wouldn't use the dragons; it's implied that he wouldn't have left if he had thought Daeneys was going to ignite the Yunkai.)

If Daenerys is removed from power by the freedmen, it will take much more time than we've been given so far; these are things that take years to achieve, not weeks.

[total1402]

But that's not how it worked in Astapor. There, people arose and could easily gather a following to challenge and usurp the status quo and there was great resentment towards how things were being handled which sparked such coups; most likely down to some popular support. Mob rule. You don't need civil institutions for demagogues and mob rule or having petty tyrants thrown up from nothing. But in Mereen Dany inexplicably does not face these challenges. Theres a real disconnect there. Martin wholly neglects the idea that her freed slaves would resent her and rebel or riot at her actions. And yes, leaders were overthrown in a matter of weeks or months or days towards the end of Astapor.

[total1402]

I'll take an example. Danys inability to deal with the Sons of the Harpy and protect her people. In US occupied Baghdad, when the Shia majority felt threatened by attacks from the Sunni's and the US couldn't offer protection the result was sectarian violence as people took matters into their own hands. You then have the rise of strongmen, militia and very quickly attacks on the ruling authorities. They could well argue that Dany is protecting or favouring the former slavers over them. This could cause resentment. WHy should they be 100% okay and agree with her policy of appeasement rather than one of strength? Martin really oversimplifies this story in ADWD by just not considering the freedslaves and how they would view the situation or the repercussions of this. IMO, violence and disorder on the streets that Dany would have had to put down. Instead Martin goes with the slaves being so grateful that they think Dany is their mother and believe whole heartedly that she is doing the right thing to protect them. This just isn't realistic. Especially when Dany is very much failing to provide the security and better life she promised them.

[mindchap]

To be fair, until you have been a slave you really have no idea of what they will do for freedom. You're going to have some who think they were better off and in some ways were better off, some people would rather be told what to think rather than to have to think for themselves, the same can be said for free people in our own world. But on the whole most of them realize why slavery is as bad as it is and short of Dany chaining them and reselling them I doubt they are going to blame her.

[Jasta11]

Ideally, she leaves them in Essos, with slavery being outlawed, and Slavers Bay being turned into a non-slave based economy..

All in the space of one book (to make room for her Westerosi antics later)?

That would require Deus Ex Machinas of an unprecedented scale. I very much doubt Martin will do that. She'll probably leave the slaves behind after a few victories over the Essosi slavers and justify it with the IT being her destiny.

[total1402]

To be fair, until you have been a slave you really have no idea of what they will do for freedom. You're going to have some who think they were better off and in some ways were better off, some people would rather be told what to think rather than to have to think for themselves, the same can be said for free people in our own world. But on the whole most of them realize why slavery is as bad as it is and short of Dany chaining them and reselling them I doubt they are going to blame her.

Yet in Astapor people do turn on |Cleon very rapidly for his failures and on subsequent leaders. Whilst Cleon was able to rise to power for the old regime Dany put in place allegedly cooperating with slavers. Dany both makes mistakes and is very cosy with the former slavers. You would expect very vocal objections to this, if not social protest and violence. The slaves should blame Dany for whats happening and for her failures. But Martin, for whatever reason just glosses over the issue entirely or goes with this very out of place nieve view that's totally at odds with what happens at Astapor.

[Nictarion]

All in the space of one book (to make room for her Westerosi antics later)?

That would require Deus Ex Machinas of an unprecedented scale. I very much doubt Martin will do that. She'll probably leave the slaves behind after a few victories over the Essosi slavers and justify it with the IT being her destiny.

Yeah, that's why I said ideally, not likely.

[mindchap]

Yet in Astapor people do turn on |Cleon very rapidly for his failures and on subsequent leaders. Whilst Cleon was able to rise to power for the old regime Dany put in place allegedly cooperating with slavers. Dany both makes mistakes and is very cosy with the former slavers. You would expect very vocal objections to this, if not social protest and violence. The slaves should blame Dany for whats happening and for her failures. But Martin, for whatever reason just glosses over the issue entirely or goes with this very out of place nieve view that's totally at odds with what happens at Astapor.

But they, apparently, don't blame her. Like I said they see the cost of their freedom and accept that. Or maybe they are the kind of people who find it more prudent to try and better things for themselves than to spend all their time whining about what fault lies where.

[Mad Monkey]

You can't compare Daenerys to Cleon. Cleon was just some guy who showed up out of nowhere leading a rabble. He didn't have a massive army, he didn't have the equivalent of nuclear weapons. Daenerys's rule isn't perfect but she has it a lot more put together than Cleon did. He reinstituted slavery which alienated the freedmen and he butchered the former nobles which alienated them. Of course he was going to fall. Cleon's entire plan was to hope that Daenerys comes back and rescues him. He had no base of support except for his own cadre of people around him. There was no one in the city who could point to him and say, "Hey, this guy tried to help me."