Jump to content

Why don't the freed slaves turn on Dany for impoverishing them?


total1402

Recommended Posts

That's a very unrealistic situation. You're saying that all the slaves understand their place and that everything relies on Dany and that discord and disunity would be bad for the general good. It would create divisions that those who wish to re-enslave them could exploit. I've already mentioned that this is not what happens in Astapor. But just think. This is not what happens in Ice and Fire. People don't believe in the general good in Ice N Fire. You are saying that Martin has the slaves act in a way which goes against how everyone else in the series behaves; even if it is the most prudent thing to do that doesn't mean its what people would do in the moment. The idea that they would and do and have since she first freed them be all 100% behind Daenerys even as she fails isn't in keeping with the spirit of Ice N Fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I look at the slave situation the same way as the smallfolk in Westeros. We all know they are getting screwed for the most part but we actually have characters mixed in with smallfolk that let us see how they are suffering and reacting to what's going on around them, but we don't have that luxury with the slaves. The only main character that ends up "in the field" with slaves is Tyrion, and there just aren't enough of those chapters for us to see the workings of John Q Freedslave, in their day to day lives.

Bottom line is they're people, and some are going to try to better their lives and some are going to try and worsen others lives. They have to be the ones to stop people like Cleon, because if they can't or won't then their lives will not improve, and Dany can't protect them and their children and granchildren, they have to step up to make things work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The mental gymnastics some people on this board go through to find ways to vilify Dany never ceases to amazing me. She freed thousands of slaves from brutal captivity. She gave them a new found sense of purpose, drive and self worth. She could have simply taken the Unsullied, plundered Astapor, taken the warships of Yunkai as they originally offered her and set sail for Westeros. But it is not in Dany's story arc to be the typical warrior queen. GRRM is obviously writing her to be much more than that.

The whole concept of "Mhysa" (mother) is lost on many people because they expect Dany to just kick asses, takes what she needs and high tail it to the West. I don't know where Martin is heading with Dany but I do know he sees her as being much more than some seat warmer on the Iron Throne. She has become bigger than that. A big telltale sign of this is by looking at how the producers of the television show have portrayed her in the last season, especially the final episode "Mhysa". She wasn't being praised as a monarch or even a savior-liberator, but as an almost deity-like figure. I know this makes Dany haters heads explode but that's why I love it even more :cool4:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dany is going to crush the economy of Essos. Its largely based on slavery. This is not like industrial revolution where you had means to somewhat replace heavy slave workforce by giving slaves small wages to work in factories.This way you suddenly don't have your chief source of income and trading becomes impossible. The Free cities don't look like a very agricultural part of the world. So they probably trade slaves/workforce for food and services and have slaves do the harsh work of maintaining local crops. And now no more Unsullied can be sold and as we know this was a VERY profitable endeavour.

The shock of taking slaves out of the equation is going to starve the slaves, because now they don't have the means to produce food or trade. The large majority of them likely have zero education and are illiterate. So now you have a bunch of people that are doing nothing except being a personal army for Dany. They have nothing to trade nor do they have the money do start doing anything seeing how they will have to divert their resources to mere survival until the short term future. They are loosing resources that they had stashed, and quickly. The same will/has happened with every city Dany frees.

When the critical number of lost slaves has been reached, the economy of the Free Cities will fail. The massive inflation because of the removal of a valuable resource is going to reduce value of goods elsewhere in Essos.

People will start to attempt to migrate to parts of the continent that they perceive is better off. Dothraki are going to start robbing cities are caravans which are now going to be easy pickings, taking everything they can and killing slaves. But now the Dothraki have a very limited number of potential buyers. They cannot trade as they could before. They will have a lot of loot left over. The food will go to waste. Slaves will die of malnutrition, in battle or for disease. Their options are now limited. They have two choices: Start a siege of a large untouched settlement or settle somewhere and attempt to form a society (the former is much more likely, as they are not known for their economic prowess). With most sellsword companies from Essos in Westeros by TWoW, there is no one to be payed to protect them even if they had enough money. As they sack a large city, the local economy fails for a while. But in this state of global economy it does not recover. It remains in such state for extended periods of time.

The only city that I am aware of that does not keep slaves is Braavos (and Pentos but only nominally). The Iron Bank of Braavos is currently giving out HUGE loans almost irresponsibly. They could have allowed this to themselves, but now, the continental economy is collapsing. They also don't have anyone to trade with. The Free Cities are crashing down and Westeros is in Total War. The Braavos would make it in the long run, but they would feel the economic impact of the collapse as well.

If Dany decided to free slaves from any of the Free Cities there would be so much hungry people that millions would starve in matter of months. Volantis is openly attacking her, and she might not have much choice there. Pentos will likely be taken for the Tattered Prince. That's two right there. And once she goes down that road she likely won't be able to just stop. Some other Free Cities will attempt to help the conquered ones. And once she frees enough slaves, everything will go down the drain for the long haul.

That's what I predict will happen if Dany frees any more slaver cities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not all ex-slaves are worse off than when they were slaves. The Unsullied are better off. And ex-slaves generally can't be put to death or tortured if they offend their masters. Some slaves did well out of the Sack of Mereen. Others have started their own businesses. Many of them have skills they can bargain with. And, in any case, Dany's only been in power a few months. She's still enjoying a honeymoon period with them. Mereen's economy has been hit, but there's plenty of food,

Astapor, by contrast, was in the grip of famine and civil war, from the moment Cleon made himself King. Then he launched a war that he lost.

The people who've suffered most in Mereen are the non-noble free people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no point in a revolt if your situation won't change,If they revolt and manage to seize Meereen,it would be a successful one But they don't have weapons to do it nor can they overcome the unsullied,So a revolt would be pointless at this stage.They could revolt after Dany leaves though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would you rather be poor, or a slave. If you say slave god help you.

Many people would rather live as a slave than die free though. I can't exactly fault them for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The mental gymnastics some people on this board go through to find ways to vilify Dany never ceases to amazing me. She freed thousands of slaves from brutal captivity. She gave them a new found sense of purpose, drive and self worth. She could have simply taken the Unsullied, plundered Astapor, taken the warships of Yunkai as they originally offered her and set sail for Westeros. But it is not in Dany's story arc to be the typical warrior queen. GRRM is obviously writing her to be much more than that.

Nobody really faults her intentions that much, rather the way she horribly bungled the execution of her abolitonism. Whether or not she intended good things for the people of Slaver's Bay, her naivety, shortsightedness and general lack of planning has gotten thousands of people killed through starvation, plague and war.

Worst of all, there's no real indication any of the changes she makes in Slaver's Bay are going to outlive her presence there, so we can't even console ourselves with the idea she's paving the way for a better future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many people would rather live as a slave than die free though. I can't exactly fault them for that.

Much depends on circumstances. A slave might be a steward, running a household, or a wretch being chucked into a bear pit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there are enough slaves disgruntled to the point of revolt to mount a serious rebellion. Even if they did, surely they realize that the Unsullied would smash them in an instant. So practically speaking, it makes total sense that they haven't done much of anything yet.

Nobody really faults her intentions that much, rather the way she horribly bungled the execution of her abolitonism. Whether or not she intended good things for the people of Slaver's Bay, her naivety, shortsightedness and general lack of planning has gotten thousands of people killed through starvation, plague and war.

Worst of all, there's no real indication any of the changes she makes in Slaver's Bay are going to outlive her presence there, so we can't even console ourselves with the idea she's paving the way for a better future.

I'm not sure why we should consider what she did "horrible bungling." Consider that Dany had virtually no resources when she began freeing the slaves, and even now, her position is precarious. We would all have loved if Dany had been able to free the slaves, find them all good jobs, reconciled and integrated them with their former societies, etc. but Dany didn't realistically have the means to pull any of this off.

So, it was a choice between freeing the slaves or leaving them in chains. Dany never promised them a perfect life. Remember when she frees Missandei - she specifically says that the only thing she can guarantee is her freedom, and that there is significant danger of hunger, sickness, and/or violence. The same applies to the other slaves Dany freed. I think it's unrealistic and unreasonable to expect Dany to take care of all of them forever. She gave them the gift of freedom; now it is up to them to make of it what they will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there are enough slaves disgruntled to the point of revolt to mount a serious rebellion. Even if they did, surely they realize that the Unsullied would smash them in an instant. So practically speaking, it makes total sense that they haven't done much of anything yet.

I'm not sure why we should consider what she did "horrible bungling." Consider that Dany had virtually no resources when she began freeing the slaves, and even now, her position is precarious. We would all have loved if Dany had been able to free the slaves, find them all good jobs, reconciled and integrated them with their former societies, etc. but Dany didn't realistically have the means to pull any of this off.

So, it was a choice between freeing the slaves or leaving them in chains. Dany never promised them a perfect life. Remember when she frees Missandei - she specifically says that the only thing she can guarantee is her freedom, and that there is significant danger of hunger, sickness, and/or violence. The same applies to the other slaves Dany freed. I think it's unrealistic and unreasonable to expect Dany to take care of all of them forever. She gave them the gift of freedom; now it is up to them to make of it what they will.

Well said.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's what I predict will happen if Dany frees any more slaver cities.

Oh goodness yes, how could Dany have freed the slaves when you know, think of the economy!!

Although, she did send out trade envoys, but the other cities sent back nothing but negative news and sometimes pickled heads in jars. Of course, if we also look at what the Widow at the Waterfront told Tyrion ("We are ready. Tell her we are ready") then you realise that slavery as a concept is under assault in Essos with Dany as its figurehead. The main reasons she is failing is not because she is dumb and clueless, but because she faces war and opposition from other cities in Essos who are unwilling to see where the wind is blowing, and also from within, where the Harpy is causing havoc. Ignoring these factors just makes your entire argument one sided since it does not take into account the entire situation.

That should not be conflated with that the abolishing of slavery automatically creates utopia, which some people seem to believe. Just look at real life revolutions: they more often than not lead to periods of instability, but they also created lasting change, one way or another. Unlike a lot of real life revolutions though, Dany is not trying to push a new ideology down people's throats, neither is she trying to force a specific religion on people. That should at least theoretically make it easier for her to lead a more successful change of society, unlike a tyrannical reign.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure why we should consider what she did "horrible bungling." Consider that Dany had virtually no resources when she began freeing the slaves,

Yeah, I have considered that. That's why she probably shouldn't have embarked on a violent abolitionist campaign with minimal resources. Again, good intentions, bad execution.

and even now, her position is precarious. We would all have loved if Dany had been able to free the slaves, find them all good jobs, reconciled and integrated them with their former societies, etc. but Dany didn't realistically have the means to pull any of this off.

Exactly. So starting a very destructive war over something she couldn't achieve is actually a very, very bad thing.

So, it was a choice between freeing the slaves or leaving them in chains. Dany never promised them a perfect life. Remember when she frees Missandei - she specifically says that the only thing she can guarantee is her freedom, and that there is significant danger of hunger, sickness, and/or violence. The same applies to the other slaves Dany freed. I think it's unrealistic and unreasonable to expect Dany to take care of all of them forever. She gave them the gift of freedom; now it is up to them to make of it what they will.

And what did the slaves Daenerys freed do in Astapor? Did they abandon the system of slavery? No, they simply enslaved the people that were in charge before. So what precisely did she fix?

So basically, she got a bunch of people killed, and slavery resumed with new masters. That's not exactly a thrilling result.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember, there were lots of revenge attacks on slavers. They wouldn't just be reslaved, there would be brutal punishments. And how many had their children strung up as a message to Dany? It's almost impossible for her to be a worse option for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I have considered that. That's why she probably shouldn't have embarked on a violent abolitionist campaign with minimal resources. Again, good intentions, bad execution.

Exactly. So starting a very destructive war over something she couldn't achieve is actually a very, very bad thing.

And what did the slaves Daenerys freed do in Astapor? Did they abandon the system of slavery? No, they simply enslaved the people that were in charge before. So what precisely did she fix?

So basically, she got a bunch of people killed, and slavery resumed with new masters. That's not exactly a thrilling result.

Again, Dany's mission wasn't to provide these slaves a perfect life. It was merely to give them their freedom. Judging by the reactions of the freed slaves, I'd say the overwhelming majority of them preferred this albeit imperfect option to the prior status quo. Is it your position that the slaves would have been better off if Dany had just left them under the yokes of the Masters?

Chaos inevitably follows the destruction of a prior social order. Look anywhere in the Middle East nowadays for an example. You're looking at these events with the benefit of hindsight. For example, there was no way for Dany to know that the freed slaves of Astapor would use their freedom merely to impose slavery upon their former masters, and she should not be held responsible for this result. That would be like someone giving a homeless person a loaf of bread, and then blaming that benefactor when the homeless person trades the loaf of bread for a bottle of vodka. The homeless person is the one responsible for his own poor decisions regarding the gifts he's been given.

Dany had to make the best choice she could with the information she had available. That the outcome wasn't ideal doesn't invalidate the rationale behind her original decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For example, there was no way for Dany to know that the freed slaves of Astapor would use their freedom merely to impose slavery upon their former masters, and she should not be held responsible for this result. That would be like someone giving a homeless person a loaf of bread, and then blaming that benefactor when the homeless person trades the loaf of bread for a bottle of vodka. The homeless person is the one responsible for his own poor decisions regarding the gifts he's been given.

In that situation, I would consider it entirely predictable that savage revenge would be taken on the free population of Astapor, and that, without any armed forces, the city would fall into anarchy. That's not an instance of being wise with hindsight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly. So starting a very destructive war over something she couldn't achieve is actually a very, very bad thing.

But she didn't do this.

She started a war over something she could, and did, achieve - giving the slaves their freedom.

Is the suggestion that it would in some way be morally preferable for her to have done nothing, rather than free the slaves? If she had the capacity to free the slaves, but not to guarantee them a future of profitable employment and all that other stuff, should she have left them in captivity? If I see someone drowning, is it morally preferable to leave them to die, if I can't guarantee that they won't starve to death tomorrow?

And why is Dany responsible for what happened to Astapor after she left - rather than the freed slaves being responsible for it, for example?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And why is Dany responsible for what happened to Astapor after she left - rather than the freed slaves being responsible for it, for example?

The blame is shared. By Dany for decapitating the government, and then marching away; by the freedmen for installing Cleon; by Cleon, for being a tyrant, and starting a war with Yunkai; and by the Slaver coalition, for sacking the city.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...