Bakker XV: Non-Man of Steel

[Madness]

Not stupid at all. As I referred to above, that knowledge is from a TTT Glossary teaser entry from Three Seas (Bakker's posts are under Cu'jara Cinmoi) that never made it into official publication. But rumours of Anasurimbor Nonmen blood are whispered in one off lines in the text.

[Sci-2]

@Lockesnow:

Do you have your original post on swazond linked, or remember some key phrases?

Need to go back and check it out. Recall not being convinced originally, but more and more I wonder if all the things I dismissed as superstition has a metaphysical basis.

[kuenjato]

On another topic, these discussions are making me think I loved Prince of Nothing more than the first two books in AE.

I agree, but for a different reason. With PoN, the end destination was known but there was a feeling that 'anything goes' to the story/character development/themes. The big problem with AE is that it felt that the entire storyline was mapped out for the reader from the very beginning, and though there is some pleasure in finding out how the various principles reach their destination, much of it has turned out to be... somewhat predictable. I think the 2nd trilogies' ultimate success hinges on TUC; I believe RSB knows this, as well.

Francis Buck: http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/light-time-and-gravity-draft/ ... Overall, I thought LTG was very good. The blind brain blather sections can get rather tedious, especially given how much RSB talks it up in his own blog, but the descriptions of working class environs/attitudes/struggles that take up the majority of the novel feel very authentic.

[Kalbear]

Esmenet as Anasurimbor and holder of Nonmen blood allows for that.

You're conflating two things that aren't connected: Esme having nonmen blood and Esme being part of the Anasurimbor line.

If you think that the reason that the Dunyain don't breed true is because of nonmen blood (plausible) then it's also quite plausible that Esme has nonman blood. Where is the evidence that she's part of the descendants of the Anasurimbors? That's the part that doesn't ring remotely true for me.

That, and the issue of genetics; carrying 'nonman blood' would be ridiculously diluted genetically after 2000 years. The Dunyain kept it fairly pure, but Esme's a common woman of low breeding; there's nothing to think that genetically she'd be a good marker, much less one of the noble lineage. That she is a good nonman broodmare appears to be a lucky contrivance, but we know there are plenty of humans who were raped and were able to carry nonmen children (of some flavor) to term.

[Madness]

As far as I recall there are viable halfbreeds actually brought to term: Sirwitta's progeny (circa Cuno-Inchoroi wars) and the Anasurimbor Two-Heart from the Nonman Tutelage.

It's said that the Anasurimbor are long-lived.

It's all just rumour, neh?

(Stupid smartphone.)

[Kalbear]

That we know of. We only have to know that there exist halfbreeds. One of which is likely the Anasurimbor - and one is a totally unrelated one.

We also know that the nonmen essentially ran rape camps to try and produce them, and for that they were damned - but they were also apparently somewhat successful.

[Sci-2]

The big problem with AE is that it felt that the entire storyline was mapped out for the reader from the very beginning, and though there is some pleasure in finding out how the various principles reach their destination, much of it has turned out to be... somewhat predictable. I think the 2nd trilogies' ultimate success hinges on TUC; I believe RSB knows this, as well.

I don't think this is the case. I mean, who could predict Khellus (sort of) disproving his own divinity to Proyas? That the Mandate would be gutted (if not practically eliminated?) long before the Ordeal reaches Golgotterath?

[Shryke]

That the Mandate would be gutted (if not practically eliminated?) long before the Ordeal reaches Golgotterath?

Wait, when does this happen?

[Tears of Lys]

Yikes. I don't remember that happening either, and I just reread WLW.

AFAIK, the Mandate's strongest members are now the Swayali Witches.

[Sci-2]

Wait, when does this happen?

Sarraccees has to intervene when the head of the Vokalati goes ape-shit. Mages from both sides join the fight.

This leads to the Mandate and Vokalati, in Bakker's words, consuming each other.

[Guest]

Yes, but it's not entirely clear the extent to which the Mandate was decimated. It's ambiguous. And it doesn't stand to reason that the Vokalati could actually wipe out substantial portions of the Mandate in a head-to-head. I think the passage was largely meant to convey the horror of the troops on the ground in such a dire situation looking up and seeing their own schools in-fighting.

[Sci-2]

Yes, but it's not entirely clear the extent to which the Mandate was decimated. It's ambiguous. And it doesn't stand to reason that the Vokalati could actually wipe out substantial portions of the Mandate in a head-to-head. I think the passage was largely meant to convey the horror of the troops on the ground in such a dire situation looking up and seeing their own schools in-fighting.

Fair enough. It is hard to see how the Vokalati could harm the Mandate, when even a lowly spy like Akka could easily kill the head of the Scarlett Spires.

@Tears:

AFAIK, the Mandate's strongest members are now the Swayali Witches.

Assuming the Mandate was in fact decimated, I wonder why Kellhus would allow such a depletion of resources. I wonder if the Swayali have learned the Gnosis utilizing some improved techniques, perhaps with a philosophical/mathematical foundation that makes them more essential for whatever Kellhus actually plans to do at Golgotterath.

[Madness]

I don't think Kellhus planned on Carindusu going AWOL nor Saccarees taking on - apparently - fully half the Vokalati.

[generic]

Fair enough. It is hard to see how the Vokalati could harm the Mandate, when even a lowly spy like Akka could easily kill the head of the Scarlett Spires.

@Tears:

Assuming the Mandate was in fact decimated, I wonder why Kellhus would allow such a depletion of resources.

I really don't think we can assume that. If I remember correctly the passage itself describes how half the Vokalati attack the Mandate Grandmaster before the other Mandate are pulled in. Yet he survives. I don't see how that leads to the loss of more then a handful Mandate.

So why decimate the Vokalati? Getting rid of unstable elements before releasing the Gnosis? As far as I know the only Schools whose Grandmasters weren't installed by Khellus were them and the Scarlet Spires. And the latter were already with him in the crusade.

[karaddin]

Yeah I really didn't think the Mandate sustained substantial losses in that, the gap between those schools is too great.

[Sci-2]

I don't think Kellhus planned on Carindusu going AWOL nor Saccarees taking on - apparently - fully half the Vokalati.

But there do seem to be clues that the guy is becoming more unhinged and frustrated. I guess not even Kellhus can predict everything, but I feel like even I could tell the dude was going to crack...though that might just be misremembering due to hindsight....

So why decimate the Vokalati? Getting rid of unstable elements before releasing the Gnosis?

Possible. The Vokalati Grandmaster is described as "sinister".

[Sci-2]

Relevant passage [page 478 US Hardcover]:

Carindûsû was the first to upbraid them. "Can't you see that this a boon?" he cried. "All this time fretting, wringing

our hands because the skinnies outrun us, because we cannot kill them quickly enough, and now, when Fate pins

them in place, delivers them to our fury, we fret and wring our hands?" With the Horde trapped and with Mandate and

the Vokalati combined, the Grandmaster argued, the Culling would become outright butchery. He and his arcane

brethren would lay carrion across the horizon.

The Believer-Kings turned to Apperens Saccarees, who gazed at his rival with wary appreciation.

"Perhaps the Grandmaster speaks true," he said.

eta:

Prince Charapatha alone harboured misgivings, for among the Lords of the South, only he reasoned that the Consult would also know of the Irshi—and so know it would catch the Horde. He was not named the Prince of One Hundred Songs for nothing: he understood the advantage conveyed by the ability to predict a foe's actions. But he had taken his father's earlier admonishment to heart and was loathe to raise questions that might undermine the ardour of his Zaudunyani brothers.

And as much as he distrusted Carindûsû and his posturing pride, the Prince had come to regard Saccarees as a kindred intellect. The School of Mandate marched with them. How could they fail?

[lokisnow]

Ah, but I think the point of comparison is the crossing the desert in The Warrior Prophet. That ordeal consumed 2/3rds of the entire force, they started the desert with over 180,000 plus camp followers and exited with 60,000.

(interesting aside, remember Kellhus washed blood out of his beard when they exit the desert, suggesting he was munching on/drinking some loyal followers to keep up his strength).

Then they lose more taking Carythusal and lose twice that in the seige of Carythusal and then exit Carythusal with conviction, and starving waiflike men wipe out the army of 50,000ish that is beseiging them.

So if Bakker says they were consumed, I'd say that at most 2/3 of the Mandate was wiped out.

[Castel]

On another topic, these discussions are making me think I loved Prince of Nothing more than the first two books in AE. Mostly that is because we get to see so little of Kellhus now, missing his POV's just detracts a lot from the power of the story, but it's also other missing characters from PoN. Cnaiur, Conphas. I've found both Mimara and Sorweel rather bland really, and Akka was always one of my least liked characters. AE makes up for that somewhat with the revelations, the more expansive plot, the excitement of knowing that you're getting closer to the ending of the Second Apocalypse storyline. But the first three books had some more going for them IMO. I'm hoping TUC will blow the lights out and compensate in grand fashion.

It's maddening, but I don't know if it was a bad decision. Just look at the speculation. Kellhus now has this aura of omniscience, even greater than before, any revelations that go against this will be even more shocking. In the mean time, everyone is on edge wondering just how or why he's fucking with people.

[Calibandar]

It's maddening, but I don't know if it was a bad decision. Just look at the speculation. Kellhus now has this aura of omniscience, even greater than before, any revelations that go against this will be even more shocking. In the mean time, everyone is on edge wondering just how or why he's fucking with people.

I wouldn't even say it's a bad decision, and it's clear why Bakker went down this route.

He did fail to replace the Kellhus/Cnaiur/Conphas pov's/storylines with equally interesting characters in my mind, which makes the second trilogy feel more detached/less immediate. Sofar I would describe AE more as "vastly intriguing" but not a series that feels very personal.