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Bakker XV: Non-Man of Steel


Rhom

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In light of commentary here, I wonder how self-sufficient TAE actually is...

I may be confused. What are you asking here? Are you asking how self-sufficient the trilogy "The Aspect Emperor" is? or How self-sufficient the in universe Kellhus as Aspect Emperor is?

If its the question regarding the books... I'd say they aren't self-sufficient on any level.

If its a question regarding Kellhus in the stories... I dunno. There's a lot of coincidences that line up for him.

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But there do seem to be clues that the guy is becoming more unhinged and frustrated. I guess not even Kellhus can predict everything, but I feel like even I could tell the dude was going to crack...though that might just be misremembering due to hindsight....

Possible. The Vokalati Grandmaster is described as "sinister".

The Vokalati Grandmaster is also "rumored" to have stolen the Gnosis. Tho', how he'd do that is anyone's guess.

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Excepting, Tears, that if Carindusu used the Gnosis against the Mandate, the Mandate would know (Gnostic and Anagogic marks differ).

I may be confused. What are you asking here? Are you asking how self-sufficient the trilogy "The Aspect Emperor" is? or How self-sufficient the in universe Kellhus as Aspect Emperor is?

If its the question regarding the books... I'd say they aren't self-sufficient on any level.

This goes back to a one off by Bakker that PON is Hobbit to TAE's LOTR. Of course, this probably hinted at scale and scope but I'm just curious.

Can someone pick up TAE, alone?

I mean, I have a friend who read TWP, TDTCB, then TTT. I read Before They Are Hanged before The Blade Itself. You can definitely read LOTR without the Hobbit.

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This goes back to a one off by Bakker that PON is Hobbit to TAE's LOTR. Of course, this probably hinted at scale and scope but I'm just curious.

Can someone pick up TAE, alone?

I mean, I have a friend who read TWP, TDTCB, then TTT. I read Before They Are Hanged before The Blade Itself. You can definitely read LOTR without the Hobbit.

Oh... then the answer to that is "Hell No."

LOTR is sufficiently self contained that the background of Bilbo and the dwarves is barely relevant at all. Compare that to the set up of Kellhus and his dynasty in AE and there's nothing that would make sense. Its hard enough grasping the names when you start at the beginning!

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Honestly, I read the books through the first time and couldn't grasp the names, it's only reading the millions of words posted on this and other forums about the books--and being forced to write the names--that made them work, otherwise they were ridiculously anti-sticky names, insanely hard to remember and organize, mentally.

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If Carindusu had the Gnosis, he would've used it against Saccarees. But he doesn't, so he doesn't (IMO).

Also, although we don't know how many Schoolmen died at Ursilor, the passage right after the King's death makes it clear that the internecine fighting has stopped. In the text, aside from the vague and likely metaphorical image of the Schools "consuming" one another, only two Schoolmen are actually killed on-screen (Carindusu and one other whose School is not even named, seen falling from the sky in King Umrapathur's final POV).

One thing I noticed, also. Kellhus tells the Ordeal not to fear thirst because the Sea of Neleost will soon be before them. But, uh, shouldn't that be salt water?

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On another topic, these discussions are making me think I loved Prince of Nothing more than the first two books in AE. Mostly that is because we get to see so little of Kellhus now, missing his POV's just detracts a lot from the power of the story, but it's also other missing characters from PoN. Cnaiur, Conphas. I've found both Mimara and Sorweel rather bland really, and Akka was always one of my least liked characters. AE makes up for that somewhat with the revelations, the more expansive plot, the excitement of knowing that you're getting closer to the ending of the Second Apocalypse storyline. But the first three books had some more going for them IMO. I'm hoping TUC will blow the lights out and compensate in grand fashion.

I completely agree with this.

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If Carindusu had the Gnosis, he would've used it against Saccarees. But he doesn't, so he doesn't (IMO).

Also, although we don't know how many Schoolmen died at Ursilor, the passage right after the King's death makes it clear that the internecine fighting has stopped. In the text, aside from the vague and likely metaphorical image of the Schools "consuming" one another, only two Schoolmen are actually killed on-screen (Carindusu and one other whose School is not even named, seen falling from the sky in King Umrapathur's final POV).

One thing I noticed, also. Kellhus tells the Ordeal not to fear thirst because the Sea of Neleost will soon be before them. But, uh, shouldn't that be salt water?

By naming convention, perhaps, although even that's not firm. There's freshwater seas on earth. Mostly "Sea of Neleost" sounds better then "Lake of Neleost" or "Neleost Lake".

Given it's geographic location, it's almost certainly freshwater.

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The Vokalati Grandmaster is also "rumored" to have stolen the Gnosis. Tho', how he'd do that is anyone's guess.

Whoah, where's this?

Curious if anyone thinks Kellhus planned for the disaster at Ursilor?

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End of WLW, Ch. 2, detailing the division of the Ordeal into the Four Armies, Sci.

I dread giving credence to Kellhus' omnipotence but he must have "planned," as a military strategist, contingencies, as the Army of the South was always going to take the brunt of the blowback from the river.

Surely, Kellhus could have lessened the damage done to the Army of the South - he might have shown up earlier himself.

As someone mentioned on SA though, now Iyokus is the only Grandmaster who wasn't installed by Kellhus himself and even here, the Necromancer seems quite pro-Kellhus, at least in respect to his arcane mastery.

Lmao. Kellhus and Iyokus. Master and Apprentice. Sith.

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Sci:

Nook version, p 57:

With them marched the Vokalati, the feared Sun-Wailers of Nilnamesh, under the Grandmaster known only as Carindusu, notorious for his insolence in the presence of the Aspect-Emperor and for his rumoured theft of the Mandate Gnosis.

Edit - Given his character flaws, it is my belief that he created this rumor personally. Like I said, if he had the Gnosis he would've used it against Saccarees.

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Curious if anyone thinks Kellhus planned for the disaster at Ursilor?

I haven't read WLW since it came out, but I remember having the impression that the disaster was absolutely planned. I think that the theory that this was the army that was the least loyal/useful to him makes sense. In addition, while it remains ambiguous, I thought that very few sorcerers were killed in this battle, and that the vast majority of them survived and retreated. We already discussed that the armies are essentially there as vessels to protect the sorcerers on their way to Golgotterath. As they get closer, Kellhus doesn't need as many armies. Since the sorcerers hover above the battle anyway, there is no shortage of space for them (they cannot clutter). Having a higher sorcerer to soldier ratio might be advantageous. And Kellhus obviously has no compunction about sacrificing tens of thousands of his own troops if it helps solidify his control and establishes the gravity of the situation.

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I actually don't agree... I think the only solid point in favor of Kellhus having planned the disaster is the length of time it took for him to arrive. But remember that the sorcerers were badly out of range when disaster struck, so it's unlikely Kellhus even knew until it was too late (since he was likely involved with fighting alongside his own army and the relays would have been delayed). And the Mandate is his strongest School, except perhaps the Swayali, so I don't think he would have wanted them destroyed at all.

On the flip side, if one believes that Kellhus was actively trying to destroy the army for one reason or another, he did a good job, except that the Mandate remained intact. Had he wanted to destroy them he could have done so himself or armed Carindusu with better sorcery to do it himself.

However, while I think the disaster was unplanned, it was by all means planned for. In other words, he always had the contingency for them to be destroyed, and if he happened to put his weakest supporters on that flank (itsel debatable given the depth of faith that the Nilnameshi king had), so much the better if it comes down to it.

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I actually don't agree... I think the only solid point in favor of Kellhus having planned the disaster is the length of time it took for him to arrive. But remember that the sorcerers were badly out of range when disaster struck, so it's unlikely Kellhus even knew until it was too late (since he was likely involved with fighting alongside his own army and the relays would have been delayed). And the Mandate is his strongest School, except perhaps the Swayali, so I don't think he would have wanted them destroyed at all.

The going theory is that the Mandate Grandmaster was in of it.

Consider this: The river crossing was an obvious point of crisis. Most of all to the Consult. Yet no one considered possibe Consult activity. Really?

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Excepting, Tears, that if Carindusu used the Gnosis against the Mandate, the Mandate would know (Gnostic and Anagogic marks differ).

Oh, I know. Bakker makes the differences between the forms of magic quite clear, but it just shows how he's looked on with suspicion.

ETA: Scratch that. Better reason mentioned upthread by WoTK - Carindusu spread the rumor himself to make himself sound more badass.

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I don't have the book at hand, but I just did a reread not long ago and I remember that guard overhearing Lil Kel talking about how he was told how the battle would play out. Its when he is in hiding and right before he killed that guard. Was it ever discussed who told him this? When I first read it, I thought it was Kellhus, being that Lil Kel got very descriptive with what happened to the Army of the South. However after my reread I am not sure.

Also, beside that I kind of always leaned towards Kellhus at least knowing what was going to happen, even if he didn't plan it. He himself always went on about how much he warned them of the Scranc and Consult, how there would come a time when they wished they never hated the elusiveness of their foe. Plus, if Prince 1000 Songs could see what was happening...

sidenote, I always thought the passage of him stripping off all his armor and telling his men to do them same in order to outrun the Scranc very cool. It reminded me of a battle that took place between a native American tribe and the US Army. The army had Indian scouts with them and when they saw the gathering of their kinsmen they took off their army uniforms, when asked why they said because they did not want to die "in the white man's clothes" or something close to that.

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The going theory is that the Mandate Grandmaster was in of it.

Consider this: The river crossing was an obvious point of crisis. Most of all to the Consult. Yet no one considered possibe Consult activity. Really?

That is an interesting point.

As we saw in the quotes upthread, Saccarees even acquiesces to C. Dog a bit on the plan at hand. But you're suggesting that it was not sincere?

+1. "Let me show you what you will win" - Saccarees before Carindusu turns on him.

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Also, regarding the theft of the Gnosis. It is stated a few times that giving them the actual Gnosis is the bait that Kellhus used to join the Ordeal. Or it at least played a part. If they already had it, why join?

On top of that Sac says something along the lines of "let me show you what you will have" to Carindusu before unleashing the Gnosis, which only served to make him more upset when the Cants started. I'm liking the idea that Carindusu started that rumor, it fits his personality.

Edit - Madness beat me to it.

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