Bakker XV: Non-Man of Steel

[Sci-2]

That is an interesting point.

As we saw in the quotes upthread, Saccarees even acquiesces to C. Dog a bit on the plan at hand. But you're suggesting that it was not sincere?

Saccarees doesn't have to be in on it. He simply has to report to Kellhus, who calculates their losses and decides it's acceptable.

The reason being that he needs to convince the Ordeal to eat Sranc. I suspect the reason he waited so long is because the effects of Sranc-flesh will be akin to Quirri, if not more pronounced in terms of physical alteration.

If he'd demanded they do this too close to civilization, after people started mutating or just got more and more addicted, at least some fraction of the Great Names and Schoolmen would likely revolt. But now, starving and far from home, the choices are eat Sranc, let them take you, or commit suicide.

Oh another note, I love the thought of Kellhus shattering the Sranc beneath him as he strides the echo of the ground. Thinking about the Schools again, another reason the losses are acceptable is the possibility of making up for them via the Nonmen and the Scarlet Spire's Daimos.

I also suspect the Aporetics will play a role. Chorae are magical artifacts after all, it could be possible to unravel their effects. Thinking about how the setting was part of Scott and his brother's D&D campaign, perhaps Kellhus casts a disjunction and sunders/negates a good bit of the Consult's sorcery.

[Madness]

I eat Sranc for breakfast. Nuff said.

[Tears of Lys]

Breakfast of Champions! (and warriors of the Second Apocalypse.)

@Sci: I like that theory a LOT. (the one about how that disastrous battle was expected to happen and how it played into Kellhus' plans.)

[Sci-2]

Breakfast of Champions! (and warriors of the Second Apocalypse.)

@Sci: I like that theory a LOT. (the one about how that disastrous battle was expected to happen and how it played into Kellhus' plans.)

Thanks! One thing I'd amend is the idea that Kellhus knew the Schools would fight.

I think he was prepared to lose soldiers but not magi.

[ToadKiller]

To me it seems that Kellhus had to know what was happening to the Army of the South and their Schools. What with his Seeing Flame and his Metagnostic Cants. Unlike previous battles, the other Armies were not being assailed, he was not preoccupied. It seems unlikely to me that he would not at least observe the battle from afar. The fact that he choses to wait until after the battle is finished to arrive adds to the theory that losing that battle was something he at least knew would happen.

Also, about how many Magi were killed doing the fighting. Many of them were lost (as in disoriented and turned around) while trying to cull the Scranc in the dust storm. Only a limited amount made it back to the battle and those are the ones who got caught up in the infighting.

The crazy thing is that the Army of the South actually had a chance at holding out, even with the Schools gone. It was that Seal Team Bashrag who broke the lines.

[lokisnow]

we have to pick up the pace of this discussion so we can start a Bakker XVI: Pacific Rim Job thread while it's still in theatres.

[karaddin]

The crazy thing is that the Army of the South actually had a chance at holding out, even with the Schools gone. It was that Seal Team Bashrag who broke the lines.

:rofl: this is my new favourite thing for the day, any time I need to smile now I'm going to picture Bashrag in Navy Seal outfits. Not that I even have a mental image for Bashrag.

[ToadKiller]

:rofl: this is my new favourite thing for the day, any time I need to smile now I'm going to picture Bashrag in Navy Seal outfits. Not that I even have a mental image for Bashrag.

Three Navy Seals make one Bashrag. One arm is three arms, one hand is three fists. Which allows for one Bashrag to hold and fire like 3 assault rifles. Which I am certain is how they took down Bin Laden.

[Sci-2]

Heh, count me in as liking Seal Team Bashrag and the Pacific Rim Job.

As to why I don't think Kellhus planned for the loss of so many magi, they just seem like too precious a resource. And if he wanted to rid himself of a school, why even send so many of the Mandate when risking Gnostic sorcerers is an incredible waste? (I suspect the Quya will cut through the Anagogic spells with ease, save for the Ciphrang called via the Daimos.)

Why not just let the Volakati flounder and ultimately weaken?

What I think happened was Kellhus planned for a disaster at some point, but wasn't sure what form it would take. He then realized the Army of the South had critically erred when its commanders proposed utilizing the river as a weapon. So when informed by Saccarrees [he] gave [t]he go ahead.

What he didn't count on was Carindusu going ape shit. Kellhus instead thought the Schoolmen would float over the battlefield, looking down in horror until he arrived. [Or if they needed to land, the addition of the Mandate would keep them from losing too many Few.]

[Francis Buck]

Random question: What do you think came first, humans, or Nonmen? What is their relationship to each other, ancestrally-speaking? The fact that they can interbreed obviously points to shared genetics, and It would seem like humanity could be viewed as a "flawed" sort of subspecies of the Nonmen, but that goes both ways (as in the Nonmen are a superior subspecies of humans). In addition, the Nonmen call themselves the People of Dawn (but they can't remember why). I guess part of the issue here is that we don't know how Earwa was formed. I think life probably evolved, at least on other planets (for example, wherever the Inchoroi came from), but Earwa's a bit different, perhaps. Maybe not. But to me the origin of the Nonmen is one of the more interesting mysteries (pretty much anything regarding the Nonmen is interesting to me though). They're referred to as being pre-eminent on Earwa -- or once were, anyway -- but that gives no clue to how life actually started there. Did everything just evolve? Was there a first man? A first Nonman? For a story so heavily interwined with Abrahamic myth, there's a (suspiciously) surpirising lack of information on the origin of things. There aren't really even any legends regarding the topic.

I do think -- or hope -- that the very early history (pre-Breaking of the Gates) is going to be significant in some way. I know others have theorized that Earwa is literally the center of the Bakkerverse, and in some way is a sort of topos in-and-of-itself. Why I agree with, but it also brings me back to wondering just how much of a role the gods have played in the history of Earwa (or even the universe period). Did they shape Earwa for their own purposes? Do the races from other worlds worship the same gods? If not, is the entire universe aside from Earwa damned?

I really hope these are things Bakker gets into. I know there are a lot more "relevant" mysteries and so-to-speak, at least regarding the plot at hand, so a lot of this stuff might never come out directly, since it may not need to. Even so, I can't help but think that Bakker (in his own head at least) has reasonable explanations for it. The overall cosmology of his universe is probably the most interesting aspect of the series to me, almost even more-so than how the central plot itself plays out (though clearly the two are, to some extent, interrelated).

ETA: One more thing. After reading a number of passages and excerpts from the wiki, I feel fairly confident that the Fanim are correct in their assertion that the "gods" as the Inrithi think of them are in fact "demons"...they're not aspects of the god, they're just beings that go around the Outside eating souls. Instead, I think souls are the aspects of the god, and in their totality they are the god itself. As Kellhus says:

“We kneel before idols,” Kellhus was saying, “We hold open our arms to the sky. We beseech the distances, clutch at the horizon … We look outward, Akka, always outward, for what lies within …” He splayed a hand against his chest. “For what lies here, in this Clearing that we share. […]We are all God […] The God is always here, watching through your very own eyes, and from the eyes of those about you.”

I think there's definitely going to be a significant Gnostic bent to the series. I would, loosely, theorize that the "gods" created the material world (in the way of a demiurge) in-order to sort of filter parts of the god (monad) -- souls -- so that they could live and thrive off them. The gods are just bigger, meaner versions of ciphrang (who, as we know, basically do the same thing gods do; torture souls, given the chance, especially when they're bound by the daimos).

Anyway that's where my mind is headed now. I'll probably think something different a few weeks from now.

ETA2: Also, this would explain why the "gods" take on such seemingly human "personalities"; because it's human souls that they're competing for. Hunters, warriors, slaves, whores, farmers, so on and so forth.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I always thought the Nonmen came first, if only because they had civilization, dominion, etc. prior to the rise of men. Of course the Nonmen can't remember any of this so damned if they can prove it.

[Shryke]

Random question: What do you think came first, humans, or Nonmen? What is their relationship to each other, ancestrally-speaking? The fact that they can interbreed obviously points to shared genetics, and It would seem like humanity could be viewed as a "flawed" sort of subspecies of the Nonmen, but that goes both ways (as in the Nonmen are a superior subspecies of humans). In addition, the Nonmen call themselves the People of Dawn (but they can't remember why). I guess part of the issue here is that we don't know how Earwa was formed. I think life probably evolved, at least on other planets (for example, wherever the Inchoroi came from), but Earwa's a bit different, perhaps. Maybe not. But to me the origin of the Nonmen is one of the more interesting mysteries (pretty much anything regarding the Nonmen is interesting to me though). They're referred to as being pre-eminent on Earwa -- or once were, anyway -- but that gives no clue to how life actually started there. Did everything just evolve? Was there a first man? A first Nonman? For a story so heavily interwined with Abrahamic myth, there's a (suspiciously) surpirising lack of information on the origin of things. There aren't really even any legends regarding the topic.

I do think -- or hope -- that the very early history (pre-Breaking of the Gates) is going to be significant in some way. I know others have theorized that Earwa is literally the center of the Bakkerverse, and in some way is a sort of topos in-and-of-itself. Why I agree with, but it also brings me back to wondering just how much of a role the gods have played in the history of Earwa (or even the universe period). Did they shape Earwa for their own purposes? Do the races from other worlds worship the same gods? If not, is the entire universe aside from Earwa damned?

I really hope these are things Bakker gets into. I know there are a lot more "relevant" mysteries and so-to-speak, at least regarding the plot at hand, so a lot of this stuff might never come out directly, since it may not need to. Even so, I can't help but think that Bakker (in his own head at least) has reasonable explanations for it. The overall cosmology of his universe is probably the most interesting aspect of the series to me, almost even more-so than how the central plot itself plays out (though clearly the two are, to some extent, interrelated).

ETA: One more thing. After reading a number of passages and excerpts from the wiki, I feel fairly confident that the Fanim are correct in their assertion that the "gods" as the Inrithi think of them are in fact "demons"...they're not aspects of the god, they're just beings that go around the Outside eating souls. Instead, I think souls are the aspects of the god, and in their totality they are the god itself. As Kellhus says:

I think there's definitely going to be a significant Gnostic bent to the series. I would, loosely, theorize that the "gods" created the material world (in the way of a demiurge) in-order to sort of filter parts of the god (monad) -- souls -- so that they could live and thrive off them. The gods are just bigger, meaner versions of ciphrang (who, as we know, basically do the same thing gods do; torture souls, given the chance, especially when they're bound by the daimos).

Anyway that's where my mind is headed now. I'll probably think something different a few weeks from now.

ETA2: Also, this would explain why the "gods" take on such seemingly human "personalities"; because it's human souls that they're competing for. Hunters, warriors, slaves, whores, farmers, so on and so forth.

That would present an interesting outcome for the series, as the Consult would be kinda correct after some fashion.

[karaddin]

Seal Team Bashrag presents an interesting question - would sorcerous wards stop fire from an assault rifle? Perhaps Anagogic wards would be sufficient for a pistol, but be overwhelmed by an assault rifle but the Gnostic sorcerors would still be safe?

[Francis Buck]

That would present an interesting outcome for the series, as the Consult would be kinda correct after some fashion.

They would? Heh, I didn't even see that aspect of it. What do you mean exactly?

[Francis Buck]

Seal Team Bashrag presents an interesting question - would sorcerous wards stop fire from an assault rifle? Perhaps Anagogic wards would be sufficient for a pistol, but be overwhelmed by an assault rifle but the Gnostic sorcerors would still be safe?

Well they can presumably stop laser and/or plasma weapons, otherwise the early Nonmen wouldn't have had much of a chance against the Inchoroi I'd think?

[Shryke]

They would? Heh, I didn't even see that aspect of it. What do you mean exactly?

If the gods are indeed parasitic demons from the Outside, then the Consult shares the same goal as, in this hypothetical, Kellhus and presumably anyone else who knows the truth.

They want to avoid being fed on.

[Shryke]

Well they can presumably stop laser and/or plasma weapons, otherwise the early Nonmen wouldn't have had much of a chance against the Inchoroi I'd think?

The Nonmen were getting beat back for quite awhile in their war if I'm remembering the glossary correctly. The gradual breakdown of the Inchoroi's advanced technology and their dependance on flesh-constructs was the turning point in the momentum of the war.

[karaddin]

Well they can presumably stop laser and/or plasma weapons, otherwise the early Nonmen wouldn't have had much of a chance against the Inchoroi I'd think?

But is there much of a difference between a laser and a line of pure energy from gnostic sorcery? Energy weapons seem similar to sorcery except they can't be stopped by chorae (and anyone can use them provided they have power). I assume the wards have some level of protection from kinetic projectiles (see arrows), but what's unclear is whether the wards are worn down by this and if so, how fast they would be depleted by that quantity of much higher kinetic energy projectiles.

[Sci-2]

@Shryke:

Could Kellhus not fear his own damnation? Perhaps he accepts he's god-meat, damned long before he left Ishual, but sees the preservation of the world's link to the Outside as the only way the Dunyain can someday conjure a self-moving soul?

@Francis Buck:

Psatma already calls Yatwer a big demon. She doesn't really disagree with Meppa save for what happens to those who are granted salvation. Seems like she figured the souls of Yatwerians and other worshipers in the Cults are still used, but in a way that gives the soul pleasure instead of agony.

For her religion is about transaction, and she encourages Meppa to abandon his fantasizing about drawing the attention of the One.

Also, the idea that the gods are demiurges sort of contradicts Bakker's mentioning the [that] God dreams up the world. Though he specifically referred to anarcane ground as the places where the God dreams most lucidly, so perhaps the lesser gods molded or mutated the onta of Earwa to better suit their desires.

From an evolutionary standpoint, IIRC animals can accidentally have souls but it's rare right? Does this mean the Outside is always trying to leak into the world via minds, but can only reliably do so via sentient minds?

Perhaps "souls" are eddies of the Outside brought into the material universe, stamped with consciousness via the brain? An accident that catches the attention of the gods?

Or did the gods add some teleological directive to get consciousness to evolve because they wanted to feed on sentient minds flavoring the sections of Outside that leak into the material, leaks Earwans think of as souls?

@karaddin:

Seal Team Bashrag presents an interesting question - would sorcerous wards stop fire from an assault rifle? Perhaps Anagogic wards would be sufficient for a pistol, but be overwhelmed by an assault rifle but the Gnostic sorcerors would still be safe?

In D&D Spelljammer, which may have influenced Earwa, a protection from normal missiles spell would stop any non-magical projectile [including guns].

I suspect it's the same here, as gun powder doesn't (IMO) change the inherent meaning of the material being fired.

[Francis Buck]

If the gods are indeed parasitic demons from the Outside, then the Consult shares the same goal as, in this hypothetical, Kellhus and presumably anyone else who knows the truth.

They want to avoid being fed on.

Gotcha. And yes, that does make sense. Especially if the gods rely on a certain amount of souls to stay "alive". Perhaps below 144,000, they start to die (or whatever you want to call it?). Dunno, just spitballing.

But is there much of a difference between a laser and a line of pure energy from gnostic sorcery? Energy weapons seem similar to sorcery except they can't be stopped by chorae (and anyone can use them provided they have power). I assume the wards have some level of protection from kinetic projectiles (see arrows), but what's unclear is whether the wards are worn down by this and if so, how fast they would be depleted by that quantity of much higher kinetic energy projectiles.

I'm not sure. Sorcery seems to exist outside of the normal realm of matter/energy, or at least that's how I've understood it so far. All I know is, my impression was that the early Nonmen won because of their sorcery, which the Inchoroi had never faced before and had no way of dealing with (thus their temporary loss in the war). So even if huge numbers of non-magical Nonmen warriors got wiped out by the Inchoroi's weapons, at some point they must've hit a brick wall (sorcery?) that they couldn't be beat. I mean the idea of "pure energy" is pretty vague in this context. Assuming that the Inchoroi are using "conventional" weapons (I.E. weapons that could exist without the assistance of sorcery of any kind), then I would think that sorcery -- being a literal bending/contorting of reality/nature -- would be able to stop it. I mean a laser is just as "natural" as an arrow, and arrows can't get through a Ward (unless attached to a chorae, of course).

Then again, that brings up the question of what the Heron Spear does. Of course, the Heron Spear could just be a very powerful conventional weapon (something none of the Earwa-peoples possess), and the No-God is really only protected against sorcery (since that was the main thing the Inchoroi had to worry about). I suppose they may not have planned for any humans or Nonmen getting a hold of one of their own weapons.

Either way it's a good question.