Bakker XV: Non-Man of Steel

[jurble]

Someone needs to do some meta-textual speculation on where Bakker's going. The man's written so much stuff over at his blog that surely even a non-Dunyain could use that material as a basis for speculating where Bakker's gonna go with the story.

[Kalbear]

I figured that was fairly obvious; this is Bakker's fantasy to show the ultimate what if to him: what if women weren't inferior to men?

Sorry. That came out wrong. :P

Seriously, he's kind of explained it. Earwa is a world where things like the BBT are actually incorrect because of something else. Bakker's terrified of the notion that all he is is a big mass of meat programmed by evolution, but he believes it like a christian zealot going to a Taliban convention. This series is a sort of fantastical explanation for BBT as a non-BBT thing. So basically look at all the stuff he says about BBT and then say 'but yeah, but we have a SOUUULLL now' and you'll essentially understand where the whole series is going.

[Francis Buck]

I figured that was fairly obvious; this is Bakker's fantasy to show the ultimate what if to him: what if women weren't inferior to men?

Sorry. That came out wrong. :P

Seriously, he's kind of explained it. Earwa is a world where things like the BBT are actually incorrect because of something else. Bakker's terrified of the notion that all he is is a big mass of meat programmed by evolution, but he believes it like a christian zealot going to a Taliban convention. This series is a sort of fantastical explanation for BBT as a non-BBT thing. So basically look at all the stuff he says about BBT and then say 'but yeah, but we have a SOUUULLL now' and you'll essentially understand where the whole series is going.

So where's the whole series going?

[Kalbear]

To understand the basis of the soul and ultimately control it.

[jurble]

Which would necessitate Kellhus under going true apotheosis?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

BBT? This is probably something I should know but all I can think of is Big Bang Theory.

[Tears of Lys]

BBT? This is probably something I should know but all I can think of is Big Bang Theory.

That would work in this context.

[Madness]

The No-God is The Blind Brain.

[Sci-2]

I think the plot of Earwa is rooted in Bakker's previous forays into philosophy. You see a bit of Penrose, for example, in the claim that the soul is necessary for the comprehension of paradox.

He's also named other philosophers that influenced parts of the work.

As such, I don't think looking at his newer theories give any real idea of where the series is going to go.

It certainly doesn't answer whether or not Kellhus can become a god, though I see little evidence [of impending apotheosis] of [in] the text save for the miracle of ripping Serwe's heart out...and possibly the Seeing Flame despite it resting in an "arcane" hearth....

[Sci-2]

I think those are too tenuous to link to Tolkien.

It's like the idea of 13 powerful persons controlling the world. That particular number seems to come up in fantasy along with 7 and 9.

As for sensing absence, that might be closer to a Tolkien inspired idea but I kind of doubt it. I think it might come from D&D actually.

As long as we're talking about TWP though, did Kellhus ever go down on Esmi or am I imagining that?

[sologdin]

long as we're talking about TWP though, did Kellhus ever go down on Esmi or am I imagining that?

you've confused it with a scene from tolkien.

[Rhom]

long as we're talking about TWP though, did Kellhus ever go down on Esmi or am I imagining that?

you've confused it with a scene from tolkien.

I thought he was confusing it with Reek on "Arya Stark"'s wedding day...

[Larry of the Lawn]

I thought he was confusing it with Reek on "Arya Stark"'s wedding day...

Pretty sure that's actually from Stanek.

[Sci-2]

@Solo: hahaha...actually I realized I was thinking of Jon Snow eating out Ygritte.

@Anyone:

I notice Psatma, when brought before Fayanal, says she's been to the Outside and back just as Kellhus has...save my understanding is that her soul has traveled and come back.

What if the subjective storm that Kellhus experiences is due to his flesh? What if Psatma saw things as they really are, especially since she never really contradicts Meppas claims that gods are ravenous demons save that she thinks Yatwerians won't be in agony when experiencing their afterlives.

[Madness]

Interesting distinction. You make travel to and from the Outside sound like Gemmell, whereas I'm also convinced Kellhus travels bodily (simply popping in and out of the World).

[Sci-2]

Interesting distinction. You make travel to and from the Outside sound like Gemmell, whereas I'm also convinced Kellhus travels bodily (simply popping in and out of the World).

Wait, just to clarify - I think Khellus travels to the Outside with his body, but Psatma leaves her flesh behind.

I just wonder if Kellhus sees the Outside through the dark glass of his flesh, and so only sees a disorganized mess. Psatma, however, sees how things really are, with the gods glorifying the faithful and endlessly devouring the damned.

So the body is a temporary prison for the soul, limiting its ability to perceive what the Outside is really like.

[Madness]

Yeap - we're on the same page. Sorry, in Gemmell's fiction, this (Psatma's proposed style) soul-travel was a common occurrence, especially with Waylander and The Thirty.

[Francis Buck]

Is the Outside ever actually described in prose? Like, what it "looks like"? Is that even possible? I mean I basically just imagine it as outer-space, with giant nebulae floating around and stuff, even though I know that doesn't make any sense. But I presume there must be something "physical" there, otherwise how could Kellhus have gone in and killed the ciphrang? (Not to mention that ciphrang themselves seem at least partly physical in the first place, though whether they possess souls encased in a body, like a mortal, is a different question altogether -- and yet apparently they can be killed? Are they soulless? Do they just work on an entirely different set of physics/metaphysics, like the gods presumably do?).

[karaddin]

Hmm what was that theory that came up a couple of threads back about the Nail of Heaven? Was it that it's a wormhole, or that it was a separate Inchoroi ship? There definitely seemed to be enough unusual references to it to convince me it's not actually a star, particularly the bit about it only appearing around the same time as the Inchies.

[Sci-2]

@Madness: Ah, will have to check out Gemmel

@Karaddin: That was HE's theory, that the Nail is an anomaly born of the Inchoroi's entrance into Earwan space.

@Francis: We've gotten very little explanation, and the one definitive description I recall is Mimara seeing Galian's damnation. Not sure how much faith to put into that though. The others I recall are:

-Psatma's soul slipping into the Outside. She sees those who follow Fanimry or Kellhus as damned, but those who worship the gods will apparently be glorified. Not sure what happens to the Orthodox Inrithi.

-Meppa seeing the Outside with his missing eyes. He claims that Psatma is wrong, that she will be devoured by the goddess she serves. In Meppa's view, it seems only the One can deliver a mortal soul from damnation.

-Kellhus, who uses the Daimos to travel directly to the Outside. He sees the God's fragmented being at war with itself. It's unclear if he thinks there is any rhyme or reason to be had in that realm.

-Anjecis tells us that as one goes further into the Outside reality becomes more malleable. IIRC beings like gods and demons shape their own pocket universes. Perhaps that is why Kellhus went Outside - to see if he could create his own mansion there?

-The Inverse Fire apparently shows those the Inchies and magi are damned. I think two Nonmen who did not bear the Mark also looked into the Inverse Fire and saw their damnation?

Two additional notes on the Inverse Fire:

-I wonder what would happen if Mimara looked into it, as the Judging Eye has shown her as Good.

-Given Kellhus's ability to see into fires via his own Seeing Flame, perhaps he's already looked through the Inverse Fire?