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Bakker XV: Non-Man of Steel


Rhom

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I have so many conflicting theories on Seswatha/heart that I can't quite remember which cracked pot is which.

But in general, yes I think Seswatha is somewhat fucking with us with the dreams.

My personal favorite Seswatha crackpot is that 'Seswatha's Heart' and 'the Inverse Fire' accomplish basically the same outcomes, and may be viewed as functionally the same thing. Perhaps even Seswatha is a bit of a Prometheus and 'stole' the Inverse Fire and repurposed it into the 'Heart' mythology in order to inflict the horrors of damnation on his followers every night in order to ensure their loyalty to the cause (there can be no doubt).

Another fun theory is that Seswatha's Heart is in fact The No God's heart, and Seswatha took it from the body inside the carapace after the No God died on Mengedda. The further logical Nerdanel of this theory is that this was Nau Cayuti, who is Seswatha's biological son, which Seswatha using NC/NG's heart as 'seswatha's heart' to create the memory-dream horrors for the mandate means he could work the sorcery without, you know, killing himself by pulling out his own heart (and would also explain why Akka is accessing NC memories in WLW).

On a more serious note,

It took forever to find this thread, but here's a breakdown I did comparing the iterations of the Celmomian prophecy.

http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=46.0

And there is this thought,

Seswatha intends for the Mandate to Witness the First Apocalypse so they can give Testament that will forestall the Second Apocalypse. Pretty straight forward.

But the Mandate ran into a snag, people like DA no longer Witness the First Apocalypse, they only See the First Apocalypse.

It's possible that a Mandate to Testament is written into the sorcery that enables the dreams, note that DA is less physically affected by the dreams when he testifies of his dreams to Esmenet or Kellhus.

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Another fun theory is that Seswatha's Heart is in fact The No God's heart, and Seswatha took it from the body inside the carapace after the No God died on Mengedda. The further logical Nerdanel of this theory is that this was Nau Cayuti, who is Seswatha's biological son, which Seswatha using NC/NG's heart as 'seswatha's heart' to create the memory-dream horrors for the mandate means he could work the sorcery without, you know, killing himself by pulling out his own heart (and would also explain why Akka is accessing NC memories in WLW).

Which also nicely parallels with Kellhus and Serwe on the circumfix. Interesting, albeit rather out there.

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Which also nicely parallels with Kellhus and Serwe on the circumfix. Interesting, albeit rather out there.

And add in all the trinity stuff/soul sharing of Kellhus/Esmenet/Serwe in The Warrior Prophet where his thoughts leak into their minds... Or perhaps it's his thoughts leak into their souls because in bakker world I don't think the brain is the seat of thoughts, the soul is the seat of thoughts, and the leaking would make more sense as souls merging rather than minds merging.
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My personal favorite Seswatha crackpot is that 'Seswatha's Heart' and 'the Inverse Fire' accomplish basically the same outcomes, and may be viewed as functionally the same thing. Perhaps even Seswatha is a bit of a Prometheus and 'stole' the Inverse Fire and repurposed it into the 'Heart' mythology in order to inflict the horrors of damnation on his followers every night in order to ensure their loyalty to the cause (there can be no doubt).

I don't think this is crackpot at all actually. One of Bakker's big ideas is we don't truly know why we do the things we do, that often our reasoning might be a way to paper over our subconscious desires.

But if the Heart and Inverse Fire are goads, as Titirga suggests, wouldn't you know you were under a Compulsion if you suddenly sprouted a mad desire to cause or prevent an Apocalypse? Isn't it better to hide the Complusion under a pretext, which is what the experiential aspects of Seswatha's Dreams of [or] the Fire's vision of Hell offers.

So you're actually compelled magically, but you think you're being motivated by the visions of Apocalypse or Damnation respectively.

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Going with the idea that the heart pins the soul to the material world, I'd say it's Seswatha's heart. Part of my opinion is based on how the Akka's dreams seem to wander from Seswatha's consciousness to other subject perspectives.

(Can't put my finger on it but I think Bakker is trying to tell us something about the metaphysics via Akka's prophesying the past, something to do with the non-locality of consciousness...)

The Heart shows genuine memories of Seswatha, but it also rewires the mind via an artifact level Compulsion. That's what ensures everyone - minus the skin spy - has the same dedication to stop Consult after experincing to the dreams.

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Pretty much... it'd be a "Nin-janjin level" red herring for NC not to be involved with the No-God at this point.

Involved with and being are two seperate things. There were quite a few people in line for the Golden Room.

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I don't know if there's straight-up mind-rewiring per-se (whatever the hell that is). If that were the case, I don't think there'd be any defectors (Inrau, for example).

Inrau never touched it. Akka lets him go because he knew he would change if he did.
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I don't know if there's straight-up mind-rewiring per-se (whatever the hell that is). If that were the case, I don't think there'd be any defectors (Inrau, for example).

I look at it this way:

Akka says the Cants of Compulsion alter a person's mind even after the spell is complete. I think the Heart and the Inverse Fire do something similar, but give you this visceral experience to make you think you're still in control.

We even see this when Kellhus talks to Seswatha in TTT. I just think the Mandate doesn't understand how fundamentally they've been changed.

Sci, even if the ensoulled skin-spy did dream, I always guessed it would have replaced Simas later in life, long after the Grasping.

Ah, good point.

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I look at it this way:

Akka says the Cants of Compulsion alter a person's mind even after the spell is complete. I think the Heart and the Inverse Fire do something similar, but give you this visceral experience to make you think you're still in control.

Gotcha, didn't mean to sound condescending by the way, just came out weird.

So despite saying like two weeks ago that I was going to wait for the The Unholy Consult to do a re-read, I'm suddenly knee-deep in TDTCB and enjoying it a lot more. Not sure what changed, just my mood I guess. I will say that this series is insanely rewarding on second time through, especially speculating on so many aspects of it, and knowing what one knows by the end of TJE. There are so many rewarding little nuggets. I'm also finding myself enjoying the prose a little more, although I don't if that will keep throughout the series.

Out of curiosity (and I can't imagine I'm the first to postulate this), are there any decent theories regarding the possibility that the Few are the only people who aren't damned? Is there "definitive" proof that sorcerers really are damned? I'm thinking back to Mimara's eye, but how does she recognize those that are damned from not-damned? Is it just intuitive for her?

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As you're doing your reread, see if you kind find any examples of a Cishaurim salting. I do not think there are any, and I think this could mean something. They always go away in some kind of light whereas the SS and other traditional sorcerers (and Mandate) salt.

I can't recall -> do Ciphrang salt?

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I'll keep an eye out for both. I have a question though:

When the Inchoroi (I presume Aurang) was "interrogating" Esmi, what exactly was happening there? Like, did he possess a human body? Was it a specially made Synthese or something? Because after they bang, Esmi basically turns around and the guy is gone, but then there's the flap of wings, implying that the bird form was there as well. Can they shapeshift?

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I'll keep an eye out for both. I have a question though:

When the Inchoroi (I presume Aurang) was "interrogating" Esmi, what exactly was happening there? Like, did he possess a human body? Was it a specially made Synthese or something? Because after they bang, Esmi basically turns around and the guy is gone, but then there's the flap of wings, implying that the bird form was there as well. Can they shapeshift?

I think it was a Synthese using Cants on Esmenet?
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I'll keep an eye out for both. I have a question though:

When the Inchoroi (I presume Aurang) was "interrogating" Esmi, what exactly was happening there? Like, did he possess a human body? Was it a specially made Synthese or something? Because after they bang, Esmi basically turns around and the guy is gone, but then there's the flap of wings, implying that the bird form was there as well. Can they shapeshift?

I'm not sure the Cants were involved here, I think this was the Inchoroi pheromonic specialty that nearly seduces Kellhus as well.

discussed here in more detail, here's my thoughts:

http://second-apocal....php?topic=24.0

There is a possible inconsistency here, in that Esmenet perceives the Consult to be man sized but later he vanishes through the window and she hears wings. A couple options:

1. Esmenet is seeing a glamour of the horrible Inchoroi form seen later in TWP, WLW and False Sun, so she sees a man rather than an outerspace rape demon. Pretty fucking huge window to allow something 12 feet tall to escape it.

2. A skin spy is connected to the synthese seen in the Inrau chapter. The synthese has taken over the skin spy to interrogate Esmenet. however I don't think skin spies leave black seed, though the next couple chapters when Esmenet connects to TTCSarcellus should clarify whether or not their seed is black. When the interrogator leaves, the Skin spy jumps out of the window and the synthese flies off.

3. Esmenet is interrogated by another kind of synthese not seen since this event.

4. Esmenet is interrogated because the synthese took control of a random dude or Consult Conspirator human, just like Esmenet is taken control of by the synthese in TTT when they try to kill Kellhus. The seed is black cuz magic.

5. Authorial inconsistency and the Inchoroi form was not yet fully fleshed out, heh. This is perhaps the most likely as the text says, “He was standing above her, his godlike frame shining in the glow of the remaining candle,” at the end of the interro-rape. Interesting that this invocation of godlike frame comes so soon on the heels of Conphas thinking of himself as a God. Also, Frames are really important to Bakker, so godlike Frame is a very loaded phrase regardless of whether or not this visitor is consistent with later portrayals of the Inchoroi, and the phrase could indicate the presence of glamour. And considering the invocation of this chapter names the Inchoroi as the race of lovers and the first significant event of the chapter is Esmenet being completely overwhelmed and in her words ‘mastered’ by the stranger’s ability as a lover, I think it is clear we’re to take this iteration of the Inchoroi as distinct from the Skin Spies and Synthese we have already seen.

In the warrior prophet a skin spy claims to have fucked Esmenet, but Sarcellus has already been killed and replaced, so either this is a lie meant to provoke a response, or Skin Spies can have their 'hard' drives salvaged and loaded onto new 'hard' ware. ;) Also, in The Warrior Prophet it is definitely a Skin Spy that interrorapes Serwe, so I'd say it's most likely a Skin Spy doing the deed, but the synthese was definitely present in the room, and probably glamoured to hide it. And it may have been in control of the skin spy... That would also explain how the skin spy got 'release' if the synthese triggered it after the interrorape.

But I would also caution not to let the mega-events of the interrorape mask the other significant events going on in chapter 9, it's an incredibly dense part of the narrative.

Note that Esemenet never has on screen sex with Sarcellus, nor does she ever think of the actual act with him, so we have no evidence of whether or not skin spies ability to blend in is completely ruined by emitting black seed.

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I'm not sure the Cants were involved here, I think this was the Inchoroi pheromonic specialty that nearly seduces Kellhus as well.
Pretty sure that that was a simple Cant and Kellhus defeats it because of the counter-Cant Akka taught him to deal with such things.

Not sure how a non-sorcerous pheromone would allow you to talk through someone else.

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