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Bakker XV: Non-Man of Steel


Rhom

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Hmmm, interesting. It definitely wasn't a straight-up Inchoroi battle-synthese with a glamour, that's just absurd. The flapping of wings I think definitely signifies the presence of the bird-synth, as RSB uses that phrase (or some variation of it) quite a few times. But yeah, the black seed thing is what got me, because I assumed it was just a skin-spy, but then the black seed seemed like something specific to the Inchies? Dunno, I'm going with just a vague authorial inconsistency at this point. I don't remember what Cants you guys are talking about at this point. You mean the mind-controlling Cants? Have we ever actually seen them in action before?

This actually brings up another question: was the Inchoroi at the end of TWP Aurax, or Aurang? I always assumed it was Aurax, since Aurang seems to mucking about in the bird-synth, doing whatever it is he's doing around the Three-Seas. So unless the Inchoroi can inhabit two synths at once...?

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As you're doing your reread, see if you kind find any examples of a Cishaurim salting. I do not think there are any, and I think this could mean something. They always go away in some kind of light whereas the SS and other traditional sorcerers (and Mandate) salt.

Cishaurim gets hit in TWP, not described beyond that. Proyas and Kellhus each get one in TTT. Moenghus... that's it, as far as I recall.

It would be a clear division to me, excepting that there is one instance where an SS is described with the Cishaurim's "rimmed by a nacre of black."

I can't recall -> do Ciphrang salt?

Setmahaga fell first, struck in the eye by an absence affixed to the end of a stick. An explosion of burning salt...

I think it was a Synthese using Cants on Esmenet?

Pretty sure that that was a simple Cant and Kellhus defeats it because of the counter-Cant Akka taught him to deal with such things.

Not sure how a non-sorcerous pheromone would allow you to talk through someone else.

But the lustful glamour fell from him, deflected by the Dara Ward.

I'll keep an eye out for both. I have a question though:

When the Inchoroi (I presume Aurang) was "interrogating" Esmi, what exactly was happening there? Like, did he possess a human body? Was it a specially made Synthese or something? Because after they bang, Esmi basically turns around and the guy is gone, but then there's the flap of wings, implying that the bird form was there as well. Can they shapeshift?

lockesnow linked the main thread but I think there are fully three threads discussing this on SA. It's a ambiguous issue, for a fact.

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This actually brings up another question: was the Inchoroi at the end of TWP Aurax, or Aurang? I always assumed it was Aurax, since Aurang seems to mucking about in the bird-synth, doing whatever it is he's doing around the Three-Seas. So unless the Inchoroi can inhabit two synths at once...?

Most people say it was Aurax, but no one knows for sure.

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Most people say it was Aurax, but no one knows for sure.

Yeah, we don't know for sure. But I like to assume that it's Aurax because that monster seems to have a bit different personality (from the limited amount we can see) from Aurang. Now, we don't know much about the Inchoroi and it is 100% possible that they just act differently when their blood is up, but it is easier for me to picture that being Aurax - the baser of the two remaining aliens.

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I'm not quite as far into my reread as Francis, but a couple of questions have come up.

Skeoas (or however Xerius' assistant is spelled) is a skin spy revealed by Kellhus in the climax of the book IIRC. There's a scene in his first chapter where Xerius touches his face and comments on his face feeling more coarse than he would expect. Then Mallahat shows up and I believe I have read discussion here that he is in fact Moenghus? He is described as pale skinned and bears the swazond on his arms. Skeoas is present in the meeting with Mallahat, shouldn't he have been discovered as a skin spy there? Or maybe I'm misremembering both facts and the whole thing doesn't matter.

On a similar vein, Sarcellus and Co are inserted into Temple business pretty thoroughly. Would Maithanet not recognize them as skin spies? Did Moenghus not teach him that or is that something he learned from Kellhus later?

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Yeah, we don't know for sure. But I like to assume that it's Aurax because that monster seems to have a bit different personality (from the limited amount we can see) from Aurang. Now, we don't know much about the Inchoroi and it is 100% possible that they just act differently when their blood is up, but it is easier for me to picture that being Aurax - the baser of the two remaining aliens.

I'm just waiting for the Aurax-Aurang buddy cop prequel to settle all this...

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I'm not quite as far into my reread as Francis, but a couple of questions have come up.

Skeoas (or however Xerius' assistant is spelled) is a skin spy revealed by Kellhus in the climax of the book IIRC. There's a scene in his first chapter where Xerius touches his face and comments on his face feeling more coarse than he would expect. Then Mallahat shows up and I believe I have read discussion here that he is in fact Moenghus? He is described as pale skinned and bears the swazond on his arms. Skeoas is present in the meeting with Mallahat, shouldn't he have been discovered as a skin spy there? Or maybe I'm misremembering both facts and the whole thing doesn't matter.

On a similar vein, Sarcellus and Co are inserted into Temple business pretty thoroughly. Would Maithanet not recognize them as skin spies? Did Moenghus not teach him that or is that something he learned from Kellhus later?

I don't remember the degree to which Mallahat and Skeoas interacted in TDTCB. I think it wasn't all that much, so it's easy to believe he didn't immediately spot it. Even if you are able to recognize skin spies, I think it's like spotting a toupee - if you're busy with other things, even a Dunyain might not notice at first. Plus, if he did notice, it isn't necessarily in his best interest to out Skeoas at that time.

As for Maithanet, he reveals the one Mandate skin-spy in book 3, and that is prior to him ever meeting Kellhus. So presumably Moenghus taught him to spot skin spies or he just picked it up on his own. I don't really know the degree to which Sarcellus and Maithanet can be assumed to have interacted, I just assumed it was none. In addition, we don't really know when the Sarcellus replacement occurred, do we?

Given that the Consult is complaining about their skin-spies being exposed in the Fanim lands but not elsewhere, it is probably safe to assume that either Maithanet was biding his time and ignoring skin spies in his midst, or he only recently learned to spot them. Although I suppose a third possibility would just be that Maithanet isn't actively seeking the skin-spies out, perhaps removing the one or two that he does encounter is just never mentioned by the Consult.

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The black-seeded visitor who interrobangs Esmenet in Sumna in Darkness is definitely an Inchoroi, not a skin spy. We know this because the Thing Called Sarcellus (version 1.0) wistfully speculates about kinky fuckery with Esmenet:

He freed his fingers and gently clutched her knees. He thought of her cunny, pressed tight and greasy between her legs, and shivered with hunger. To simply be where the Architect had been! To thrust where he had thrust. It at once humbled and engorged. To plunge into a furnace stoked by the Old Father!

The Architect and Old Father are names used by the skin spies for the synthese, i.e., Aurang.

I believe that to an outside observer, Esmenet would have seemed to have intercourse with a chicken that is not a chicken.

Which probably elevates an already disturbing scene to WTF level 20. I’m racking my mind to see how it could have been weirder.

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I don't remember the degree to which Mallahat and Skeoas interacted in TDTCB. I think it wasn't all that much, so it's easy to believe he didn't immediately spot it. Even if you are able to recognize skin spies, I think it's like spotting a toupee - if you're busy with other things, even a Dunyain might not notice at first. Plus, if he did notice, it isn't necessarily in his best interest to out Skeoas at that time.

Skeoas is pretty active in that meeting. He's the one who starts to freak out when Mallahat begins channeling the conversation and yells that it isn't safe and Xerius should flee. I would think that it would be sufficient for Moenghus to pick up on it. For that matter, could you remind me how Moenghus spots them without his eyes? Kellhus sees the fist under the face quite easily with his regular vision. Does Moenghus spot it with voices or with that weird Cish sight that sees souls?

As for Maithanet, he reveals the one Mandate skin-spy in book 3, and that is prior to him ever meeting Kellhus. So presumably Moenghus taught him to spot skin spies or he just picked it up on his own. I don't really know the degree to which Sarcellus and Maithanet can be assumed to have interacted, I just assumed it was none. In addition, we don't really know when the Sarcellus replacement occurred, do we?

Given that the Consult is complaining about their skin-spies being exposed in the Fanim lands but not elsewhere, it is probably safe to assume that either Maithanet was biding his time and ignoring skin spies in his midst, or he only recently learned to spot them. Although I suppose a third possibility would just be that Maithanet isn't actively seeking the skin-spies out, perhaps removing the one or two that he does encounter is just never mentioned by the Consult.

This I'm not sure. Obviously, Sarcellus has been replaced when we first meet him in the tavern with Akka and Inrau. He's pretty high up there in the guard already at that point and one would think he had been in the Shriah's presence at some point. :dunno:

Speaking of Inrau; I had no recollection of him being a badass in his scene in the temple, but he ripped one skin spy's heart out and was getting ready to lay the smack down on Sarcellus as well before he was slapped down by the Inchie.

I did find myself wondering if we saw evidence of a god speaking to him though. I don't have the book in front of me, but he's crying out to the Singer in the Dark and praying for an answer when he hears wings and he asks internally "Is that you?" and the answer in his head is "No." And then he says "What should I do?" "Flee." (Or something along those lines.) It then goes on to have some more internal dialogue that is obviously not the goddess.

I was confused in that section because he's clearly getting messages from outside his own consciousness, but I wasn't certain if it might have been the goddess or the synthese. The fact that he was told to run would seem to be a point against the synthese. :dunno:

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Speaking of Inrau; I had no recollection of him being a badass in his scene in the temple, but he ripped one skin spy's heart out and was getting ready to lay the smack down on Sarcellus as well before he was slapped down by the Inchie.

I did find myself wondering if we saw evidence of a god speaking to him though. I don't have the book in front of me, but he's crying out to the Singer in the Dark and praying for an answer when he hears wings and he asks internally "Is that you?" and the answer in his head is "No." And then he says "What should I do?" "Flee." (Or something along those lines.) It then goes on to have some more internal dialogue that is obviously not the goddess.

I was confused in that section because he's clearing getting messages from outside his own consciousness, but I wasn't certain if it might have been the goddess or the synthese. The fact that he was told to run would seem to be a point against the synthese. :dunno:

I was wondering along a similar line of thought myself during this scene. The phrases "No" and "Run" could be interpreted as an outside consciousness, but they could also just be Inrau thinking them to himself. For most of that sequence he's wrestling with doubt about the Gods, so when he wondered if if the wings were Onkis and then "No" appeared, I personally took it as him basically second-guessing himself the whole time, as he had already done in that scene a few times previously.

I too forgot about him doing that badass double-finger heart-rip thing though. Took me by surprise.

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I was wondering along a similar line of thought myself during this scene. The phrases "No" and "Run" could be interpreted as an outside consciousness, but they could also just be Inrau thinking them to himself.

I believe we're supposed to think it's just Inrau's own thoughts on an intial read. I recently did a reread of the series and it was striking how many instances of literal divine intervention occurred that I had attributed to superstition. Onkis speaking to Inrau is the first.

Gilgaöl also appears to "ride" Saubon during at Mengedda, "His misapprehensions fell away, and the old exhilaration coursed like liquor through his veins, a sensation he had always attributed to Gilgaöl, One-Eyed War." After the battle, Saubon is named Battle-Celebrant, "the man whom dread War had chosen as his vessel on the field five days previous." The text tells you directly, and still it's easy to dismiss.

Then, during The Thousandfold Thought, Gilgaöl seems to hop into Cnaiür for a bit. Conphas recalls the fight to subdue Cnaiür, specifically, "They had all seen dread Gilgaöl rearing about him, a great horned shadow..." and then makes mention of how The God just seems to vanish as they wrestle him to the ground. Again, easy to write off as pure superstition, but the text is direct about what's going on. Also interesting, while Cnaiür is under Gilgaöl's influence, he keeps insisting he's a demon. Makes me wonder if Fane might just have known a thing or two after all.

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A thought I had. Bakker emphasizes over and over and over and over and over and over that Achamian is a teacher. The idea is brought up repeatedly. It makes me wonder if it's supposed to be a hint towards what Kellhus' goals are with Achamian, since the journey is entirely his construct.

If Bakker is intent on convincing us that Achamian has the soul of a teacher, then Kellhus' whole purpose in getting Achamian to Ishual has been on getting a teacher to Ishual. I've raised the idea in previous threads that Kellhus only destroyed the Dunyainic adults, and that the Dunyainic children remain. Kellhus' goal being that after the failure of the Ordeal (which is a necessary sacrifice to convince the world of the Consult's threat), that the Dunyainic children trained by Achamian would be the true weapon against the Consult, given the lack of Heron Spear. However, when I previously stated my ideas I hadn't hit upon the connection of Bakker's insistence of 'Achamian as a teacher' with this scenario.

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I'm not quite as far into my reread as Francis, but a couple of questions have come up.

Skeoas (or however Xerius' assistant is spelled) is a skin spy revealed by Kellhus in the climax of the book IIRC. There's a scene in his first chapter where Xerius touches his face and comments on his face feeling more coarse than he would expect. Then Mallahat shows up and I believe I have read discussion here that he is in fact Moenghus? He is described as pale skinned and bears the swazond on his arms. Skeoas is present in the meeting with Mallahat, shouldn't he have been discovered as a skin spy there? Or maybe I'm misremembering both facts and the whole thing doesn't matter.

On a similar vein, Sarcellus and Co are inserted into Temple business pretty thoroughly. Would Maithanet not recognize them as skin spies? Did Moenghus not teach him that or is that something he learned from Kellhus later?

Kellhus accidentally outs Skeaos because he's never encountered a skin spy before, Moenghus would know better.

Maithanet gets rid of Sarcellus relatively quickly--particularly quickly after the death of Inrau, by sending him with the contingent to Momemn, this is hardly an assignment Sarcellus could beg off, and it's an assignment Maithanet can give to Sarcellus without the Consult being suspicious that Maithanet is trying to get rid of Sarcellus.

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A thought I had. Bakker emphasizes over and over and over and over and over and over that Achamian is a teacher. The idea is brought up repeatedly. It makes me wonder if it's supposed to be a hint towards what Kellhus' goals are with Achamian, since the journey is entirely his construct.

If Bakker is intent on convincing us that Achamian has the soul of a teacher, then Kellhus' whole purpose in getting Achamian to Ishual has been on getting a teacher to Ishual. I've raised the idea in previous threads that Kellhus only destroyed the Dunyainic adults, and that the Dunyainic children remain. Kellhus' goal being that after the failure of the Ordeal (which is a necessary sacrifice to convince the world of the Consult's threat), that the Dunyainic children trained by Achamian would be the true weapon against the Consult, given the lack of Heron Spear. However, when I previously stated my ideas I hadn't hit upon the connection of Bakker's insistence of 'Achamian as a teacher' with this scenario.

A special squad of Gnosis-wielding, Achamian-trained Dunyain would be pretty fucking badass.

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Kellhus' goal being that after the failure of the Ordeal (which is a necessary sacrifice to convince the world of the Consult's threat)

Why bleed his Kingdom dry of magi if the only intent is to sacrifice the Ordeal? Especially if this means the Ordeal doesn't prevent the resurrection of the No-God.

If Kellhus wants to convince people of the threat he can just rule the Empire until the Consult gets its shit together and brings back the No-God. Then the stillborns will convince them.

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I think he needs to force the Consult's hand. The longer the Consult wait the more powerful they become. If he convinces them to take the field (having slaughtered the Ordeal), and deploy the No-God, he's gotten them out where they can be defeated. Otherwise, they might just summon the No-God, and do the sensible thing - wait. Slowly the population would drop to 144,000 and they'd be free of damnation. But if they're convinced that the strength of humanity has been wasted against Golgotterath with the Ordeal's defeat, then being arrogant idiots, they'll take the field to speed up humanity's reduction.

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Multiple non-chickens.

In one room, a beautiful naked woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little birds crawled over her. They had bald human heads and tiny genitals full of black semen, like the servitor who brought Achamian the glass of chanv. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red month, tearing and chewing.

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