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Bakker XV: Non-Man of Steel


Rhom

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On a much lower level than most of our discussion here...

When Conphas is introduced, there is a paragraph that describes him essentially as a self moving soul. It says something to the effect of "Even when he reacted to someone else the way they expected, it was only an act that served him." (The book is at home and can't get the exact quote.) Is this why Conphas has seemingly always been immune to Kellhus? He is so self-confident/self-moving that he can't be effected by the Dunyain manipulations?

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On a much lower level than most of our discussion here...

When Conphas is introduced, there is a paragraph that describes him essentially as a self moving soul. It says something to the effect of "Even when he reacted to someone else the way they expected, it was only an act that served him." (The book is at home and can't get the exact quote.) Is this why Conphas has seemingly always been immune to Kellhus? He is so self-confident/self-moving that he can't be effected by the Dunyain manipulations?

Basically. Conphas can't believe anyone could be better then him.

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Otherwise, they might just summon the No-God, and do the sensible thing - wait.

But even Aurang, who I suspect being more aggressive than Aurax, notes Sil's impatience costing the Inchies victory. [They seemed to have learned that lesson the hard way.]

I think it's much more likely the No-God is something that cannot be sustained without fuel. I suspect that fuel is souls.

Whether or not there's the Cnaiur example, the Akka example made me wonder if this is some very subtle backing up of the idea that many of our main characters are vessels or avatars of the gods like Akka/Fate or Nayu/War or Inrau/Onkis, etc...

Why do people associate Akka with Fate?

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But even Aurang, who I suspect being more aggressive than Aurax, notes Sil's impatience costing the Inchies victory. [They seemed to have learned that lesson the hard way.]

Where is that from?

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Now I'm running into a problem... I'm nearing the end of my TDTCB re-read.

Unfortunately, I let a friend of mine read the book a few months back. I then gave her TWP. She was taking some graduate classes and didn't have time to read it right away. Now she's getting divorced and my book wound up in an unmarked box in her storage unit.

:tantrum:

I asked her about it today and she said she could buy me a new copy rather than making me wait until she unpacks everything. However, I don't see that as something I want to ask her to do. So my re-read may come to a screeching halt. :crying:

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Thousand fold thought iirc.

I believe it's when aurang is laying the trap for Kellhus.

Here's the text, not sure what the physical page numbers are:

There had been a time when he'd walked in glory and horror. Spear‐Bearer to mighty Sil, the

great King After‐the‐Fall. He had dared the wrath of Cu'jara Cinmoi on the plains of Pir Pahal. He

had ridden the back of Wutteät, Father of Dragons. He had wrestled Ciögli the Mountain—

thrown him from his feet! Sarpanur, the Nonmen of Ishriol had called him at first, after the

keystone that fixed their crude subterranean arches. And then, following the Womb‐Plague, Sin‐

Pharion, "the Angel of Deceit."

Ah, the raucous glory of that age! He had been young then, before the accretions of graft after

graft had sapped his monumental frame. And such a contest! But for Sil's impatience, he and his

brothers would have won, and all this―this world—would be moot.

eta: bolded part about impatience.

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Here's the text, not sure what the physical page numbers are:

Thanks for the quote Sci.

But isn't the timeline sort of messed up for that to make sense? Sil was the Inchoroi king who was killed in the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. He was long dead by the time the No-God was summoned. If the Inchoroi were going to learn the lesson of patience from Sil, wouldn't they have exercised that lesson during the First Apocalypse?

I ask because we've had arguments on these threads about what the Consult were thinking wrt letting the No-God take the field at Mengadda. I'm not sure that the Consult had full control over their creation, and even if they did, I'm not sure that taking him to Mengadda was such a poor move strategically. Simply avoiding battle until old-age destroys the human armies is a risky proposition in it's own way (doubly so if the human sorcerers could teleport).

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If the Inchoroi were going to learn the lesson of patience from Sil, wouldn't they have exercised that lesson during the First Apocalypse?

I ask because we've had arguments on these threads about what the Consult were thinking wrt letting the No-God take the field at Mengadda.

Assuming they were in control of the No-God, I'd say the reason It took the field is because Its maintenance requires an incredible amount of effort and fuel.

If the Consult had lost the battle on the Plains of Mengedda apparently they would have lost everything. This suggests the No-God can't be parked over an Ocean while the population depletes.

On a second note, to find the spelling of Mengedda I checked the PoN Wikia and saw this:

2136 - Shiarau capitol of Aörsi falls in spring, and Aörsi is destroyed. The Worldhorn, a ceremonial sorcerous artifact, is lost with Shiarau.[109]

Makes me wonder how many sorcerous artifacts there were in the past, and if Kellhus has constructed new ones he'll unleash at Golgotterath.

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I stayed up until like 2:30am last night finishing TDTCB. Overall I can say I definitely enjoyed it more the second time around. Just the familiarity with the names and some of the higher metaphysical concepts (and of course all of the revelations from later books) makes it a very, very different experience. As mentioned I was also less turned off by the prose, perhaps due to having become acclimated to it before (and expecting it). I also forgot about great Cnaiur is. Some of his behaviour and lines are really very amusing, particularly some of his interactions with Kellhus (and his completely forthcoming hatred of him).

Kellhus: Do you recall the first time we spoke in your yaksh?

Cnaiur: Of course, I curse that day with every waking breath.

(actually that's from TWP, but even so it amused me for some reason).

I was also surprised how many things were subtly revealed in the first book, but which would be hard (if not impossible) to catch the first time around.

A question:

What's the deal with the one vision Achamian has (or a recollection of a dream maybe, I can't remember) of Seswatha being crucified by Mekeritrig? When is that supposed to have taken place? Do we know anything more of it?

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How exactly he escaped is also a mystery IIRC.

It's never been spelled out AFAIK, but I believe the prevailing theory is that Seswatha did manage to temporarily turn Mekeritrig who then freed him.

Also, harkening back to our discussion of Pits and Yatwer's condemnation of whores (they makes pits of their wombs) this was of interest (and may have been mentioned earlier?):

Seswatha smiled. "Or fathered ... The fact is, we haven't the words for such things. Even if we

could pierce the shroud of millennia, I fear this place would remain beyond our understanding."

"But I understand full well," the young Prince said. "You're saying that Golgotterath is a dead

womb."

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Thanks for the quote Sci.

But isn't the timeline sort of messed up for that to make sense? Sil was the Inchoroi king who was killed in the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. He was long dead by the time the No-God was summoned. If the Inchoroi were going to learn the lesson of patience from Sil, wouldn't they have exercised that lesson during the First Apocalypse?

I have to assume that Aurang means that Sil should have waited and tried to use the Womb-Plague. But even then, he probably wouldn't have gotten another chance to turn a kingdom against the Nonman Emperor and once Nin...something refused to fight, he had to destroy him fast. I can't quite see what else he could be referring to or where Sil failed.

He had wrestled Ciögli the Mountain—

thrown him from his feet!

Also: holy fuck. Didn't this guy break the neck of Wuuteat? The Inchies come off as pretty pathetic but that was bad-ass I have to say.
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I have to assume that Aurang means that Sil should have waited and tried to use the Womb-Plague. But even then, he probably wouldn't have gotten another chance to turn a kingdom against the Nonman Emperor and once Nin...something refused to fight, he had to destroy him fast. I can't quite see what else he could be referring to or where Sil failed.

Also: holy fuck. Didn't this guy break the neck of Wuuteat? The Inchies come off as pretty pathetic but that was bad-ass I have to say.

Yup, always thought that was an awesome piece of lore. I genuinely can't wait to see the (inevitable) battles between men (and even Nonmen?) against the entire horde of the No-God (Inchoroi in their war-synthes, sranc, bashrag, dragons), not to mention the possibility of the gods themselves. All these ancient battles that fill the backstory are awesome (another way the series is quite reminiscent of Tolkien's myth, but to see all knew ones, with all these factions and characters and lore that have been developed over the course of the series, really has an enormous amount of potential.

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Yup, always thought that was an awesome piece of lore. I genuinely can't wait to see the (inevitable) battles between men (and even Nonmen?) against the entire horde of the No-God (Inchoroi in their war-synthes, sranc, bashrag, dragons), not to mention the possibility of the gods themselves

I don't think this will happen in TUC. If the No-God wakes humanity is finished as there are just too many Sranc.

[i guess mankind might be able to hold off for a little while? Enough time to try some clever plan that will disrupt the No-God? Maybe Kellhus needs to capture and interrogate Shae in order to create a new Heron Spear?]

However, this makes me wonder if Kellhus's plan is to fuck up the No-God's resurrection. Perhaps he's calculated he can't stop it, so instead he'll utilize some manner of sorcery to ensure it doesn't have the same control over the weapon races as before.

From a meta-plotting perspective this makes sense though how Kellhus could do this is unclear.

Also, I think if the gods do fight in will be via channeling themselves through mortals.

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