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Bakker XV: Non-Man of Steel


Rhom

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Was that the comment about being able to see the Cishaurim?

Yeah, it was something about that and a few other things. Akka does some weird ass cant there anyway, was kinda interesting.

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Oh yeah, I forgot that he was taking them between spaces or some weird thing and that's when Xin could see, rather than him just randomly being able to see them. I'd like to get that cant explained at some point!

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I think Xin had some rudimentery version of the Cishaurim's Third Sight, which I mentioned in a previous Bakker thread, makes me wonder about how the Cishaurim didn't capture Skin Spies before Moe got there, since their Third Sight should let them see Souls similar to how the Ciphrang's vision is described in TTT.

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Is the Outside ever actually described in prose? Like, what it "looks like"? Is that even possible? I mean I basically just imagine it as outer-space, with giant nebulae floating around and stuff, […]

I have a different view. Ajencis tells us that the Outside is malleable to the desires of its denizens. So some part of the Outside look like, say, Sugar Rush Land from Wreck-It Ralph, others like Fangorn with Japanese schoolgirls. Others may be Star Trek Outer Space with nebulae. It all depends on how powerful the local demon is. Yatwer-land consists entirely of exceptionally well-made beds (possibly with people rutting on them) and huge fields (again, some people may be rutting.) Gilgaöl-land is the W40K universe.

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Hmm what was that theory that came up a couple of threads back about the Nail of Heaven? Was it that it's a wormhole, or that it was a separate Inchoroi ship? There definitely seemed to be enough unusual references to it to convince me it's not actually a star, particularly the bit about it only appearing around the same time as the Inchies.

For your speculative perusal: The nail of heaven.

-Given Kellhus's ability to see into fires via his own Seeing Flame, perhaps he's already looked through the Inverse Fire?

+1 on the consolidation of post. Specifically, this all depends on the mechanisms by which the Flame works? Is it directly tied to combustion or location? If location, isn't the Outside another type of place?

Flipping through fires... soldiers drinking, singing, drinking, jerking, DAMNATION!!!, soldiers drinking, eating... WHA?!

I think Xin had some rudimentery version of the Cishaurim's Third Sight, which I mentioned in a previous Bakker thread, makes me wonder about how the Cishaurim didn't capture Skin Spies before Moe got there, since their Third Sight should let them see Souls similar to how the Ciphrang's vision is described in TTT.

My only issues with using Meppa's (or the Cishaurim's) truths to give us hints of the Outside are that they reflect first the World-Between, which is not quite the Outside nor is it the World.

Achamian describes it as souls walking, carrying their flesh on their backs. So they clearly move using their eternal souls - reminds of Warrens or, again, Gemmell's soul travel (though here you couldn't move the physical location of your body, despite the world-shaking ramifications of happenings in his analogous Outside).

But they see the World-Between - the only reason this is in fact mentioned in the books, is to distinguish the way Cishaurim see. When Xinemus died, would he rather have seen the true Outside?

I have a different view. Ajencis tells us that the Outside is malleable to the desires of its denizens. So some part of the Outside look like, say, Sugar Rush Land from Wreck-It Ralph, others like Fangorn with Japanese schoolgirls. Others may be Star Trek Outer Space with nebulae. It all depends on how powerful the local demon is. Yatwer-land consists entirely of exceptionally well-made beds (possibly with people rutting on them) and huge fields (again, some people may be rutting.) Gilgaöl-land is the W40K universe.

+1.

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Specifically, this all depends on the mechanisms by which the Flame works? Is it directly tied to combustion or location? If location, isn't the Outside another type of place?

Flipping through fires... soldiers drinking, singing, drinking, jerking, DAMNATION!!!, soldiers drinking, eating... WHA?!

Can you elaborate on the question of location vs. combustion? Do you mean the difference between Kellhus peering through any place with a flame, versus peering through any area with the chemical reaction of combustion?

I guess it would depend on what the Inverse Fire actually is. If it's a type of Seeing Flame that looks Outside rather than within volume of Earwa, then I think Kellhus would have knowledge of its existence and could peer through it.

What's also interesting is even if he can't see through that flame, there's bound to be fires in Golgotterath. Has he looked through those?

My only issues with using Meppa's (or the Cishaurim's) truths to give us hints of the Outside are that they reflect first the World-Between, which is not quite the Outside nor is it the World.

Yeah, I don't think this was the actual Outside, nor does Akka mention Heavens or Hells.

Oh, I think in an interview Bakker mentioned the Scarlet Spires have numerous accounts of the Outside that differ from each other.

I assume they gathered their info via the Daimos?

Also the Nonman Kellhus strikes a bargain with notes that substitutions have occurred in the past when people go into the Outside. Makes me wonder if the Nonman believe in walking into oblivion was based on exploration rather than just some Buddhist-esque belief in a fatal Nirvana.

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Can you elaborate on the question of location vs. combustion? Do you mean the difference between Kellhus peering through any place with a flame, versus peering through any area with the chemical reaction of combustion?

Sorry, being cheeky. Fire is combustion. Does the Seeing-Flame depend on a burning fire (candle, brazier, pit, etc) as you've written in articulating my question or is it more like Scrying, which seems to be able to peer anywhere based on the sorcerer's prowess?

What's also interesting is even if he can't see through that flame, there's bound to be fires in Golgotterath. Has he looked through those?

+1. Lol, reminds of Proyas' "are they scrying our scrying?"Always funny!

Oh, I think in an interview Bakker mentioned the Scarlet Spires have numerous accounts of the Outside that differ from each other.

I assume they gathered their info via the Daimos?

They quiz the Ciphrang or souls of the Damned, which they enslave as proxy for mechanisms of animata?

Also the Nonman Kellhus strikes a bargain with notes that substitutions have occurred in the past when people go into the Outside. Makes me wonder if the Nonman believe in walking into oblivion was based on exploration rather than just some Buddhist-esque belief in a fatal Nirvana.

Malowebi mentions something similar - it makes me wonder if most, if not all, Totalitarian Dictators in Earwa are Ciphrang possessing bodies...

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They quiz the Ciphrang or souls of the Damned, which they enslave as proxy for mechanisms of animata?

I don't think the Damned can be summoned? I think enslaving the animating essence of souls has to be done on living beings.

Malowebi mentions something similar - it makes me wonder if most, if not all, Totalitarian Dictators in Earwa are Ciphrang possessing bodies...

Ah, the way I read I thought such substitutions happened [only] to travelers who journeyed Outside, but I suppose Ciphrang might have reached into the world and replaced previous souls?

Also, another possible traveler to the Outside is the Captain? Didn't Sarl or someone say that sometimes souls bounce back?

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All good questions. I think you are right about the distinction of having travelled to the outside.

We did talk about the Captain being a Ciphrang.

I don't know. The way people in Earwa talk about Kellhus being a demon it suggests something like possession has happened before.

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When Mim sees the Captain with the Judging Eye she sees a ciphrang, iirc.

Yeah, when Akka takes Zin out of Iothiah (not Caraskand, but they're headed there), it's said that they "walked the shadow way."

Before we get to Zin's comments about how he could see the seeing, we get something like an Akka POV where he keeps worrying that the Cishaurim will see them and that they'll be fucked. But it says something about how they seem to stop short of spotting them again and again to Akka's immense relief.

I wish I had the book handy, but the way it's written, it almost seems like it is implying that they're aware of Akka and are letting him pass. It's not clear, but it could be. Is Moe instructing them to let Kellhus's tutor make it back to Caraskand??

That's how I took it.

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The bodies of the Sloggers are charred, a darkness barely illuminated by the thin threads of illumination [light] that represent lingering virtue (or maybe just lingering humanity, which I guess is potential virtue?).

Ciphrang, IIRC, glow brightly in the sight of the Few. I doubt they'd look charred in the Judging Eye, though I suppose it is possible we've no evidence for this.

eta:

Anyone think Akka goes Outside in his dreams? I've assumed all that was revealed by the Heart was Seswatha's memories, but what if the artifact connects the Mandate and Swayali connect them to Seswatha's soul?

What if Earwans are most like the dreaming God when they too are dreaming?

eta 2:

Though Mimara does think of them as demons in that passage. Don't have my hardcover on me at the moment though so can't give you a page #.

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Can someone please explain to me the method (or what we know of it) through which Seswatha's Heart works, in regards to the dreams of the Mandati? Like the metaphysics? It's just something I've never grasped at all, which may come from not reading TFS or WLW, or just from ignorance during readings of the first five books. Much thanks shall be dispensed.

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We only know so much, but here's what I can recall (and I'm not sure if it will answer your question).

Seswatha supposedly wanted the Mandate to never forget the threat of the Consult, so he somehow arranged for his heart to be mummified or something. Mandate initiates must go through "The Grasping" or something like it in Carythusal where they do some ritual touching Seswatha's heart. This ritual somehow transfers much of Seswatha's life experiences into them so that they'll relive certain key events in their dreams.

To my knowledge, that is what we know. It is presumably sorcerous in nature, but that's what I've got.

Ah, I see. I remember hearing about the touching ritual. I suppose this could be one of the biggest mysteries finally revealed in TUC? The fact that he's shed so little light on it certainly implies that its inner-workings, metaphysically speaking, maybe be quite important to understanding more about the world/souls/magic, if not necessarily the overarching plot. Thanks Trisky.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Swayli don't have the dreams? Is that correct? They have the Gnosis from Kellhus, but they don't actually touch the heart? Also, Kellhus has never actually touched the heart either?

Having just finished Long Price Quartet, I have decided to take a break from my "To Be Read" pile and do a re-read on TPoN. Will see how much more I pick up this go around.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Swayli don't have the dreams? Is that correct? They have the Gnosis from Kellhus, but they don't actually touch the heart? Also, Kellhus has never actually touched the heart either?

All the Swayali have touched the heart...the one exception *might* be Serwa, who could be faking it...but I doubt it. Kellhus would have good reason to bind her to his cause more than any of the others. Of all his children, she might be the only real threat in time.

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