Elia of Dorne: Princess, Sister, Wife, and Mother

[Kuther2000]

Apologies. I meant sexually or emotionally threatened. Jealous. Envious. I didn't mean physically threatened.

THIS!

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you for succeeding where I failed. In this story, powerful men mostly do what they want. Princes and Kings even more so. Elia's feelings Lyanna or Jon or QLAB really wouldn't have mattered. Dorne can't rise up against the Targaryens and it's unlikely that any Houses outside of Dorne would have joined them. Her only real choices would be to leave or to stay.

I guess I prefer to think of Elia as being "a part of the plan" rather than getting pushed aside.

But isn't that a horrible choice. How many moms would want to leave her children and that is what Elia would have to do. Then if she did leave them people would be talking about how horrible a person and mother she is for leaving them.

It doesn't matter if she was a part of the plan, but she would have gotten pushed aside no matter what. If what everyone keeps saying about Rhaegar telling Lyanna that she would be the only one for him. Elia would have been cast aside even without a divorce and annulment. She would be Rhaegar's wife in name only even if she agreed. That is still being pushed aside.

If she did know Rhaegar's plan and agreed to it, it gets to the point where one has to ask, "did anyone tell Rhaegar that it wasn't the best plan and there are better plans out there than simply running off together?"

I think that the only person who can tell us how she really felt are Doran or George R.R. Martin. Anyone less and it is up for debate.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

But isn't that a horrible choice. How many moms would want to leave her children and that is what Elia would have to do. Then if she did leave them people would be talking about how horrible a person and mother she is for leaving them.

It doesn't matter if she was a part of the plan, but she would have gotten pushed aside no matter what. If what everyone keeps saying about Rhaegar telling Lyanna that she would be the only one for him. Elia would have been cast aside even without a divorce and annulment. She would be Rhaegar's wife in name only even if she agreed. That is still being pushed aside.

Whoa! I've never heard that before. Do you have a quote of him saying that? (Not a challenge just genuinely would like to read it)

If R+E's marriage was polyamorous that isn't the same as getting cast aside. It's more like sharing. Even if he was in love with Lyanna that doesn't automatically equal Elia being cast aside.

There are too many different types of relationships possible to immediately jump to "Elia was being cast aside". We don't know what the plan was or anything that happened between R+E so we can't say one way or another. But I do concede that her being cast aside is also just as likely as not.

If she did know Rhaegar's plan and agreed to it, it gets to the point where one has to ask, "did anyone tell Rhaegar that it wasn't the best plan and there are better plans out there than simply running off together?"

I think that the only person who can tell us how she really felt are Doran or George R.R. Martin. Anyone less and it is up for debate.

Considering how intellectual Rhaegar was rumored to be, it doesn't parse that "running off" was the plan. If it was, Rhaegar was probably more "crazy" and "great". If Ashara isn't dead then she'd be able to shed some light on that. Or anyone else that would have been living at KL at the time if anyone else managed to survive. Varys comes to mind. Illyn Payne is annoyingly mute. Maybe more of Elia's ladies-in-waiting or maids? The maids know everything.

[Kuther2000]

Whoa! I've never heard that before. Do you have a quote of him saying that? (Not a challenge just genuinely would like to read it)

If R+E's marriage was polyamorous that isn't the same as getting cast aside. It's sharing. Even if he was in love with Lyanna that doesn't automattically equal Elia being cast aside. There are too many different possible types of relationships to immediately jump to "Elia was being cast aside". We don't know what the plan was or anything that happened between R+E so we can't say one way or another. But I do concede that her being cast aside is also just as likely as not.

It's not a quote. It is what many fans have said. It is a reason for why Lyanna would willingly run away with a married man when she didn't want Robert because he would sleep around.

Just because he has to stay married to Elia doesn't mean that he will be sleeping with her or treating her like a wife anymore. It would be more likely than not that she would be cast aside because of what we already know. Rhaegar loved Lyanna. He didn't love Elia. No more children can come from his marriage with Elia so why would he sleep with her now. If he were to sleep with her now, it would be for recreational purposes but since we know Rhaegar has Lyanna the love of his life for that. She won't even get that.

Considering how intellectual Rhaegar was rumored to be, it doesn't parse that "running off" was the plan. If it was, Rhaegar was probably more "crazy" and "great".

But running off together is what they did. That is a fact if Lyanna wasn't kidnapped. There are much better plans for them to use. Many people on this board who don't even live in that kind of world can come up with much better ones and they aren't even considered probably half as smart as Rhaegar would be considered.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

It's not a quote. It is what many fans have said. It is a reason for why Lyanna would willingly run away with a married man when she didn't want Robert because he would sleep around.

Just because he has to stay married to Elia doesn't mean that he will be sleeping with her or treating her like a wife anymore. It would be more likely than not that she would be cast aside because of what we already know. Rhaegar loved Lyanna. He didn't love Elia. No more children can come from his marriage with Elia so why would he sleep with her now. If he were to sleep with her now, it would be for recreational purposes but since we know Rhaegar has Lyanna the love of his life for that. She won't even get that.

Having been in a poly relationship in the past. And knowing many people that are in poly relationships for various reasons. I feel I can say that there is a HUGE difference between your partner having a intimate relationship with another person and your partner sleeping around. The difference between those two scenarios is largely psychological and it's immensely personal. But the former reason does not mean getting cast aside, it's literally just like sharing.

Additionally, I know many people that are in relationships, marriages or otherwise, that have extremely strong loving relationships that do not include a sexual component to it- for various reasons. And not being able to have children doesn't preclude her from sex entirely. There's moontea, etc.

However; if we say that it does preclude her from having sex, then to me that more strongly indicates that Elia would be more accepting of Lyanna than not. If you're stating that Elia's value to Rhaegar is as a baby-maker, then Elia already lost. I think Rhaegar liked and respected Elia more than that. But if he didnt; the only way Elia would be Queen would be if she got on board with Rhaegar finding another wife. I imagine sharing a crown is way better than not having one at all.

But running off together is what they did. That is a fact if Lyanna wasn't kidnapped. There are much better plans for them to use. Many people on this board who don't even live in that kind of world can come up with much better ones and they aren't even considered probably half as smart as Rhaegar would be considered.

All that we *know* is that Rhaegar and Lyanna left one place (we don't even know what place) and ended up in another place almost a year later. Lyanna was found there with 3 kingsguards and then she died.

Everything else is conjecture. We don't know if they ran off together romantically or not. What if they were recruited for some epic adventure by a CotF and fell in love while kicking ass and killing zombies?? (A storyline, I'd love btw).

The little we know about what Rhaegar was up to leads me to believe it was either EPIC and will greatly impact the storyline when we learn about it. Or exactly what we were told, R saw a girl. She caught his fancy. They took off. 9 months later she's preggers. Which is also possible. Rob, married Jeyne, and as a result lost his war which he didn't see coming. Maybe R with L was just a random huge mistake R made.

That'd be kind of depressing but it is definitely probable. If it was, Elia wouldn't have had too much time to feel anything but angry and confused. I wonder if R spoke to E when he returned to KL before going to the Trident. We learned he spoke to Jaime but I wonder if we'll hear if he spoke to anyone else.

Why was R speaking with Jaime? Jaime should have been with Aerys. I wonder what Rhaegar and Aerys talked about. I wonder if that's a story Jaime could tell.

[Kuther2000]

Having been in a poly relationship in the past. And knowing many people that are in poly relationships for various reasons. I feel I can say that there is a HUGE difference between your partner having a intimate relationship with another person and your partner sleeping around. The difference between those two scenarios is largely psychological and it's immensely personal.

Additionally, I know many people that are in relationships, marriages or otherwise, that have extremely strong loving relationships that do not include a sexual component to it- for various reasons. And not being able to have children doesn't preclude her from sex entirely. There's moontea, etc.

However; if we say that it does preclude her from having sex, then to me that more strongly indicates that Elia would be more accepting of Lyanna than not. If you're stating that Elia's value to Rhaegar is as a baby-maker, then Elia already lost. I think Rhaegar liked and respected Elia more than that. But if he didnt; the only way Elia would be Queen would be if she got on board with Rhaegar finding another wife. I imagine sharing a crown is way better than not having one at all.

I am not dissing poly relationships. I accept them. But I also think that poly relationships are also about equality and non jealousy. All members of the poly relationship being equal. This isn't a poly relationship. The reason being is because Rhaegar can't just divorce Elia because he found someone else and it isn't because he loves Elia. It is because of the society that they live in. Don't you think that if Rhaegar could get out of the marriage he would have? It was arranged so he had no choice. He didn't love her.

But most people feel that sex is a very natural component of a relationship. They are in their 20s not 70s. I dont think you understood what I meant when I was talking about not being able to have children anymore.

I meant that he can still have sex with Elia even without wanting to have children but he doesn't love her. I was actually thinking of the use of moontea when I was typing that. He already has Lyanna the actual woman that he loves to have sex with so why would he have sex with Elia because the only reason for them to have sex would be baby making and they can't have anymore. Sex isn't always about babymaking. It can be something fun that you share with someone else.

Elia is already lost because of the fact that she can't have anymore kids. Rhaegar went after another woman because that was one of the reasons. Being a babymaker is the only status that she has. Actually Elia has already provided on her part of the deal, she gave Rhaegar two children- one a son and heir. Most men would just accept it and thank god that they have the son that they so desired but not Rhaegar.

Do you think that all these other noblewoman who also want to share their husband and the crown? If Rhaegar had chosen Cersei, you could best believe Elia and her children would have met with an accident.

[Kuther2000]

Having been in a poly relationship in the past. And knowing many people that are in poly relationships for various reasons. I feel I can say that there is a HUGE difference between your partner having a intimate relationship with another person and your partner sleeping around. The difference between those two scenarios is largely psychological and it's immensely personal. But the former reason does not mean getting cast aside, it's literally just like sharing.

Additionally, I know many people that are in relationships, marriages or otherwise, that have extremely strong loving relationships that do not include a sexual component to it- for various reasons. And not being able to have children doesn't preclude her from sex entirely. There's moontea, etc.

However; if we say that it does preclude her from having sex, then to me that more strongly indicates that Elia would be more accepting of Lyanna than not. If you're stating that Elia's value to Rhaegar is as a baby-maker, then Elia already lost. I think Rhaegar liked and respected Elia more than that. But if he didnt; the only way Elia would be Queen would be if she got on board with Rhaegar finding another wife. I imagine sharing a crown is way better than not having one at all.

All that we *know* is that Rhaegar and Lyanna left one place (we don't even know what place) and ended up in another place almost a year later. Lyanna was found there with 3 kingsguards and then she died.

Everything else is conjecture. We don't know if they ran off together romantically or not. What if they were recruited for some epic adventure by a CotF and fell in love while kicking ass and killing zombies?? (A storyline, I'd love btw).

The little we know about what Rhaegar was up to leads me to believe it was either EPIC and will greatly impact the storyline when we learn about it. Or exactly what we were told, R saw a girl. She caught his fancy. They took off. 9 months later she's preggers. Which is also possible. Rob, married Jeyne, and as a result lost his war which he didn't see coming. Maybe R with L was just a random huge mistake R made.

That'd be kind of depressing but it is definitely probable. If it was, Elia wouldn't have had too much time to feel anything but angry and confused. I wonder if R spoke to E when he returned to KL before going to the Trident. We learned he spoke to Jaime but I wonder if we'll hear if he spoke to anyone else.

Why was R speaking with Jaime? Jaime should have been with Aerys. I wonder what Rhaegar and Aerys talked about. I wonder if that's a story Jaime could tell.

But they did run off together regardless. That is a fact that can't be disputed. This isn't a world where a married Prince and lady of a great house can go on an adventure together. Even Dany who doesn't know the details and only has second or third hand information knows that he took her. I actually think it was probably more of its better to ask forgiveness than permission story. I am pretty sure that there is alot more to it but them running off together is a fact.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I am not dissing poly relationships. I accept them. But I also think that poly relationships are also about equality and non jealousy. All members of the poly relationship being equal. This isn't a poly relationship. The reason being is because Rhaegar can't just divorce Elia because he found someone else and it isn't because he loves Elia. It is because of the society that they live in. Don't you think that if Rhaegar could get out of the marriage he would have? It was arranged so he had no choice. He didn't love her.

But most people feel that sex is a very natural component of a relationship. They are in their 20s not 70s. I dont think you understood what I meant when I was talking about not being able to have children anymore.

I meant that he can still have sex with Elia even without wanting to have children but he doesn't love her. I was actually thinking of the use of moontea when I was typing that. He already has Lyanna the actual woman that he loves to have sex with so why would he have sex with Elia because the only reason for them to have sex would be baby making and they can't have anymore. Sex isn't always about babymaking. It can be something fun that you share with someone else.

Elia is already lost because of the fact that she can't have anymore kids. Rhaegar went after another woman because that was one of the reasons. Being a babymaker is the only status that she has. Actually Elia has already provided on her part of the deal, she gave Rhaegar two children- one a son and heir. Most men would just accept it and thank god that they have the son that they so desired but not Rhaegar.

Do you think that all these other noblewoman who also want to share their husband and the crown? If Rhaegar had chosen Cersei, you could best believe Elia and her children would have met with an accident.

Poly relationships are often a result of unsatisfied needs. Rhaegar thought he needed a 3rd child. Probably, a 3rd legitimate heir. How could he get that *without* marrying someone else? Whether or not Elia would have been cast aside as a result, there's no way to know. But could Rhaegar, Prince of the 7 kingdoms, have gotten rid of Elia if he wanted to? Yes. If Rhaegar didn't want her around.. she wouldn't be around. But considering it doesn't seem like R even spoke to E after meeting L, who knows.

Historically, Targaryens pretty much just did what they wanted while giving everyone else in Westeros the finger. I don't think "gossip" would have stopped him.

Do you think that all these other noblewoman who also want to share their husband and the crown? If Rhaegar had chosen Cersei, you could best believe Elia and her children would have met with an accident.

Queening and Kinging is a business. Which I think is why gossip makes a point to mention when a King and Queen actually get along because it's so rare - being in love is a bonus. Personally, Queen > Sex. If my kids wouldn't be in danger, I'd be just fine with that.

Perhaps there's a reason he didn't choose Cersei outside of the her being terrible? At first Rhaegar thought *he* was TPWP, maybe he picked Elia because he thought he would end up needing a 3rd wife and the lannisters are too ambitious to trust?

I think it's important to note that Elia met a lot of potential suitors before landing on Rhaegar. Likewise, Rhaegar had a lot of potential suitors before marrying Elia. He could have married, pretty much anyone. I think that in itself says a lot. They may not have had a romantic love but they had a connection of some kind. More often than, not friendships are stronger and more satisfying than love. Being married to a person you like and respect seems to be a rare enough thing in Westeros. I wouldn't devalue that.

[Kuther2000]

Poly relationships are often a result of unsatisfied needs. Rhaegar thought he needed a 3rd child. Probably, a 3rd legitimate heir. How could he get that *without* marrying someone else? Whether or not Elia would have been cast aside as a result, there's no way to know. But could Rhaegar, Prince of the 7 kingdoms, have gotten rid of Elia if he wanted to? Yes. If Rhaegar didn't want her around.. she wouldn't be around. But considering it doesn't seem like R even spoke to E after meeting L, who knows.

Historically, Targaryens pretty much just did what they wanted while giving everyone else in Westeros the finger. I don't think "gossip" would have stopped him.

People in poly relationships can also get out of those relationships at any time unlike Rhaegar and Elia. It would be very hard to get rid of Elia. She isn't some minor noblewoman. She is his wife the mother of his children and a princess of a royal bloodline. This is like saying that Stannis can just get rid of Selyse without a fight from the Florents. Robert the King can't even get rid of Cersei and if he tried there would be major backlash. Do you really think the Martells would just sit around and say okay, you can treat our daughter terribly and just accept that? Rhaegar alienated 3 Great Lords, the Starks, Baratheons, and Martells when he ran off with Lyanna. The only reason the Martells fought for them is because of Elia and the children. Which makes me wonder if the Martells would have even gotten involved if Elia and the children weren't hanging over their heads. If he didn't won't Elia around, she can't just leave, she's his wife.

The Targaryens also got ousted because sometimes people go to far with giving Westerosi lords the finger.

Queening and Kinging is a business. Which I think is why gossip makes a point to mention when a King and Queen actually get along because it's so rare - being in love is a bonus. Personally, Queen > Sex. If my kids wouldn't be in danger, I'd be just fine with that.

Perhaps there's a reason he didn't choose Cersei outside of the her being terrible? At first Rhaegar thought *he* was TPWP, maybe he picked Elia because he thought he would end up needing a 3rd wife and the lannisters are too ambitious to trust?

I think it's important to note that Elia met a lot of potential suitors before landing on Rhaegar. Likewise, Rhaegar had a lot of potential suitors before marrying Elia. He could have married, pretty much anyone. I think that in itself says a lot. They may not have had a romantic love but they had a connection of some kind. More often than, not friendships are stronger and more satisfying than love. Being married to a person you like and respect seems to be a rare enough thing in Westeros. I wouldn't devalue that.

You would be fine with it but there are plenty of people who wouldn't be okay with sharing their husband and status even in an arranged political marriage. You also said something about you having been in a poly relationship before.

I didn't mean that he would choose Cersei. I just stuck Cersei in the Lyanna part and said that. If it was Cersei, she would try to get rid of them. There are plenty of other people who would also try to get rid of the other person. Cersei wasn't chosen for a bride because Aerys had gone crazy and was terrified of Tywin. Rhaegar didn't choose Cersei because he can't its Aerys choice. Rhaegar was already married and he loved Lyanna and didn't love Cersei.

No Rhaegar couldn't have married anyone. Aerys was the one looking for wives for Rhaegar. Aerys had many particulars about what he wanted in a bride one was Valyrian descent and no one in Westeros. Aerys finally decides on Elia because she was the closets to a suitable age bride and had some Valyrian in her because a Targaryen had married into the house before. Aerys made the final decision.

I would never devalue a relationship that is built on respect and friendship. I am one of those people who prefer agape to eros anytime.

[arthur_dayne_went_insane]

I agree!

Alternatively Dany may have been seeing Rhaegar with Lyanna and not Elia.

i thinl george comfirmed it was elia dont remember when but its been stated.

[Onna Lewyys]

Whether or not Elia would have been cast aside as a result, there's no way to know. But could Rhaegar, Prince of the 7 kingdoms, have gotten rid of Elia if he wanted to? Yes. If Rhaegar didn't want her around.. she wouldn't be around. But considering it doesn't seem like R even spoke to E after meeting L, who knows.

<snip>

They may not have had a romantic love but they had a connection of some kind. More often than, not friendships are stronger and more satisfying than love. Being married to a person you like and respect seems to be a rare enough thing in Westeros. I wouldn't devalue that.

I agree. If Rhaegar had really not given a shit about Elia anymore and had cast her aside, she wouldn't have still been in the palace during the war. According to Jaime, it was only after Rhaegar died on the Trident that Aerys kept Elia as a hostage, so that doesn't explain why she was still there before that. Unless it was still her home. Furthermore, in Jaime's dream in ASOS he has a vision of Rhaegar saying, "I left my wife and children in your hands." And I would figure that Jaime has a better grasp on what was actually going on at the palace, since he's one of the very few we're familiar with who was actually there. So if he really was left to guard Elia and her children, that tells me that Rhaegar did still care for her, even if not in a romantic way.

[Kuther2000]

I agree. If Rhaegar had really not given a shit about Elia anymore and had cast her aside, she wouldn't have still been in the palace during the war. According to Jaime, it was only after Rhaegar died on the Trident that Aerys kept Elia as a hostage, so that doesn't explain why she was still there before that. Unless it was still her home. Furthermore, in Jaime's dream in ASOS he has a vision of Rhaegar saying, "I left my wife and children in your hands." And I would figure that Jaime has a better grasp on what was actually going on at the palace, since he's one of the very few we know who was actually there. So if he really was left to guard Elia and her children, that tells me that Rhaegar did still care for her, even if not in a romantic way.

We also have to take into account that the Martells and the Dornish people were upset. We hear about that from GRRM. Lewyn Martell had to be reminded gracelessly that Aerys still had Elia and the children and that was before the Trident because Lewyn died there too. I know that Aerys is paranoid but with Lewyn he has good reason too.

Rhaegar's wife and children have just been used in a hostage manner and Rhaegar does nothing. WTF! If it was me and mine, I don't care if he is my father and my King. The children would have had no place there as soon as he made that graceless statement.

I don't think that Jaime was left to guard Elia and the children. He was Kingsguard and the only one there. He was meant to protect the King and thats where he was. Even in Jaime's flashback, Rhaegar never says that he wants Jaime to protect his family. He actually says that he can't take him because Jaime is a glorified hostage not that he used those words.

In Jaime's dream, I think this is more about Jaime's guilt than about what Rhaegar said to him. He thinks of having failed the King and failed the family. Who would be his accusers but his sworn brothers those sworn to protect? Who would be the person who accuses him of not protecting the children. None other than Rhaegar himself, husband and father.

This doesn't mean that I don't think that he cared for them. I never said that. There are just alternate ways for this scene to be taken.

Barristan was also at the palace and even he doesn't know all.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

People in poly relationships can also get out of those relationships at any time unlike Rhaegar and Elia. It would be very hard to get rid of Elia. She isn't some minor noblewoman. She is his wife the mother of his children and a princess of a royal bloodline. This is like saying that Stannis can just get rid of Selyse without a fight from the Florents. Robert the King can't even get rid of Cersei and if he tried there would be major backlash. Do you really think the Martells would just sit around and say okay, you can treat our daughter terribly and just accept that? Rhaegar alienated 3 Great Lords, the Starks, Baratheons, and Martells when he ran off with Lyanna. If he didn't won't Elia around, she can't just leave, she's his wife.

The Targaryens also got ousted because sometimes people go to far with giving Westerosi lords the finger.

I think the Martells would remember that they can't field as many men as men as the king and would act cautiously. Meanwhile, Robert is dependent on the Lannisters. He needs them for money and they helped him secure the throne. He gave them a lot of power. Robert didn't like Cersei but I don't think he wanted to get rid of her. Plus, fear of Tywin is prudent.

Rhaegar pissed off 2 people. Brandon and Robert. The deaths of Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark, and the way they were executed, is what pissed everyone else off.

If Rhaegar didn't want Elia around he could just send her away. Regardless of where she wants to be. Men been doing that for years. When King Henry Vii wanted to get rid of his wife, he figured it out. 8 times. He got rid of the princess of Spain and didn't start a war. When there's a will there's a way.

No, Rhaegar couldn't have married anyone. Aerys was the one looking for wives for Rhaegar. Aerys had many particulars about what he wanted in a bride one was Valyrian descent and no one in Westeros. Aerys finally decides on Elia because she was the closets to a suitable age bride and had some Valyrian in her because a Targaryen had married into the house before. Aerys made the final decision.

I would never devalue a relationship that is built on respect and friendship. I am one of those people who prefer agape to eros anytime.

Aerys was sending out envoys to search for a wife for Rhaegar. Which I think Aerys did largely to give Tywin the finger. That doesn't mean Rhaegar didn't choose Elia on his own in the end. She was in KL a while before marrying Rhaegar. I don't think the idea of them independently sparking a friendship and getting married is far fetched. Honestly, that's more likely than Aerys forcing Rhaegar too hard to marry Elia. Particularly, since he was unhappy in his own arranged marriage.

[Kuther2000]

I think the Martells would remember that they can't field as many men as men as the king and would act cautiously. Meanwhile, Robert is dependent on the Lannisters. He needs them for money and they helped him secure the throne. He gave them a lot of power. Robert didn't like Cersei but I don't think he wanted to get rid of her. Plus, fear of Tywin is prudent.

Rhaegar pissed off 2 people. Brandon and Robert. The deaths of Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark, and the way they were executed, is what pissed everyone else off.

If Rhaegar didn't want Elia around he could just send her away. Regardless of where she wants to be. Men been doing that for years. When King Henry Vii wanted to get rid of his wife, he figured it out. 8 times. He got rid of the princess of Spain and didn't start a war. When there's a will there's a way.

Just because one acts cautiously doesn't mean that they wouldn't make a big fuss about it that could have problems later on down the road. This is also Doran's acting cautiously. If Oberyn had been the one in charge, you can best believe he wouldn't be acting cautiously. Lannisters didn't really secure Robert the throne. He essentially won the throne with the help of Jon Arryn and Ned Stark not Tywin Lannister. Robert would have gotten rid of her if he could, but he can't because of who she is a Lannister and because of who her father is.

Rhaegar pissed off the Martells too. GRRM said it. That the Dornish didn't like how Elia was treated. Just because they didn't go saying that they were going to kill Rhaegar doesn't mean that they weren't pissed.

Aerys was sending out envoys to search for a wife for Rhaegar. Which I think Aerys did largely to give Tywin the finger. That doesn't mean Rhaegar didn't choose Elia on his own in the end. She was in KL a while before marrying Rhaegar. I don't think the idea of them independently sparking a friendship and getting married is far fetched. Honestly, that's more likely than Aerys forcing Rhaegar too hard to marry Elia. Particularly, since he was unhappy in his own arranged marriage.

I never said that Rhaegar and Elia couldn't have been friends too. What I said that it was Aerys decision who Rhaegar married. And if Aerys had decided that he would marry Cersei, you can best believe he was gonna marry Cersei no matter if he liked her or not. So Rhaegar essentially didn't have a choice.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Just because one acts cautiously doesn't mean that they wouldn't make a big fuss about it that could have problems later on down the road. This is also Doran's acting cautiously. If Oberyn had been the one in charge, you can best believe he wouldn't be acting cautiously. Lannisters didn't really secure Robert the throne. He essentially won the throne with the help of Jon Arryn and Ned Stark not Tywin Lannister. Robert would have gotten rid of her if he could, but he can't because of who she is a Lannister and because of who her father is.

Rhaegar pissed off the Martells too. GRRM said it. That the Dornish didn't like how Elia was treated. Just because they didn't go saying that they were going to kill Rhaegar doesn't mean that they weren't pissed.

Exactly. Being pissed and making a fuss is not the same thing as starting a war. The consequences for Rhaegar bouncing off Lyanna, the war, was unforeseeable and the result of a many overreactions. "The kidnapping set in motion a chain of events that lead to Robert's Rebellion." It didn't start the war. Marriage problems happen. It gets dealt with politically. Doran would know that and act accordingly. Brandon did not.

SO, uhhhh..... what was the topic again?

Sorry OP. Didn't mean to hijack your thread!

[Onna Lewyys]

We also have to take into account that the Martells and the Dornish people were upset. We hear about that from GRRM. Lewyn Martell had to be reminded gracelessly that Aerys still had Elia and the children and that was before the Trident because Lewyn died there too. I know that Aerys is paranoid but with Lewyn he has good reason too.

As I've said a number of times, the fact that the Dornish were upset tells us nothing about the actual state of Rhaegar & Elia's relationship. Robert and the Starks were also upset about Rhaegar "kidnapping" Lyanna; that doesn't mean it was the truth of things.

That story about Lewyn also comes from Jaime, a short way before he says, "Somehow [Aerys] had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side" (refusing to send them to Dragonstone along with the queen and Viserys). Is that a contradiction then? I don't know. Also, Rhaegar wasn't in KL when Lewyn was there; he was in the south. So there's a good chance that he had no idea his father was regarding Elia and her children as hostages.

Barristan was also at the palace and even he doesn't know all.

Wasn't he out actually fighting in the war?

[Onna Lewyys]

SO, uhhhh..... what was the topic again?

lol, IKR. I'm getting a little hazy on what we're actually fighting about.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

As I've said a number of times, the fact that the Dornish were upset tells us nothing about the actual state of Rhaegar & Elia's relationship. Robert and the Starks were also upset about Rhaegar "kidnapping" Lyanna; that doesn't mean it was the truth of things.

That story about Lewyn also comes from Jaime, a short way before he says, "Somehow [Aerys] had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side" (refusing to send them to Dragonstone along with the queen and Viserys). Is that a contradiction then? I don't know. Also, Rhaegar wasn't in KL when Lewyn was there; he was in the south. So there's a good chance that he had no idea his father was regarding Elia and her children as hostages.

Wasn't he out actually fighting in the war?

I believe so. Which is why he wasn't there to turn on Jaime.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

lol, IKR. I'm getting a little hazy on what we're actually fighting about.

LOL Yah i noticed that about myself last night. I think we're all agreed that we have no idea what happened and so we're debating what we think/want to have happened. Either way, I'm just enjoying talking about ASOIAF without getting eye-rolled out of the room. Eye-rolls cut like swords.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Why did Elia return to KL?

After the Tourney at Harrenhall. After Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QLAB. After Rhaegar left to catch up with Lyanna.

Elia returned to KL and didn't immediately not beeline to Dorne. Not saying Elia could suspect that her life is in danger but typically when women have a huge row with their husbands they hide out at their parent's house. She would have already been on the road and without her husband. Did Rhaegar return to KL from Harrenhall?

[lareine]

Apologies. I meant sexually or emotionally threatened. Jealous. Envious. I didn't mean physically threatened.

THIS!

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you for succeeding where I failed. In this story, powerful men mostly do what they want. Princes and Kings even more so. Elia's feelings Lyanna or Jon or QLAB really wouldn't have mattered. Dorne can't rise up against the Targaryens and it's unlikely that any Houses outside of Dorne would have joined them. Her only real choices would be to leave or to stay.

I guess I prefer to think of Elia as being "a part of the plan" rather than getting pushed aside.

I also like to think that she was "part of the plan," but I've got to admit that probably a large part of that is my own personal reaction. As a modern woman, it's hard for me to see even the female characters I don't like (Cersei for example) powerless over their own destinies. Elia's one of my favorite characters and I'd really like to think that she was respected enough to be included in the plan and that her consent at least somewhat mattered to her husband. Realistically though, given her position and the world she lived in, her options were pretty limited and her consent may have only been pragmatic. Though I know its unlikely, I'd really love to know how she really felt.

I'd also really like to know why Rhaegar chose to handle things in such an abrupt and haphazard fashion. If he truly wanted to take Lyanna as a second wife in a way that was respectful to all the parties involved (Elia, Lyanna, their families and Robert) there were definitely better ways he could have gone about it. And why the sudden rush? Wouldn't it have been more politically astute to deal with his unstable father first and then take a second wife?

It could have simply been that Lyanna's wedding to Robert was fast approaching, but to me, it feels like there was some other, larger reason forcing his actions. Perhaps some prophetic time frame or window was closing or there was something else afoot politically that we don't know about yet? It just really feels like there was some time element at play that drove him to act so uncharacteristically reckless. Does anyone else have feel the same, or am I being completely loopy?