LGBTQ The Next

[protar]

So I didn't want to continue the derail of the "How gay are you" thread, but I wanted to ask the question: Are transgender people super sensitive about how they are perceived/referred to? Because that's what I am getting from that thread.

As far as I know, I've never met a transgender person. Now, I think they deserve just as much respect as anyone else, and I would certainly treat them as such, but some of the responses in that thread sorta makes me feel like if I ever get to know a transgender person, I would spend a lot of times walking on eggshells around them.

I'm sure it varies and it's important to remember that the internet lends itself to arguments. I know a transgender person and they're very relaxed and amiable. But then I haven't really bought the topic it up with him directly.

[Robin Of House Hill]

The only one I knew, was open and relaxed amongst those she trusted, but after being outed by those she thought were friends, became a bit more stringent in protecting her "secret". She once said that unless she confirmed it, people who suspected, could never actually know her background.

[Chaldanya]

So I didn't want to continue the derail of the "How gay are you" thread, but I wanted to ask the question: Are transgender people super sensitive about how they are perceived/referred to? Because that's what I am getting from that thread.

As far as I know, I've never met a transgender person. Now, I think they deserve just as much respect as anyone else, and I would certainly treat them as such, but some of the responses in that thread sorta makes me feel like if I ever get to know a transgender person, I would spend a lot of times walking on eggshells around them.

Well if you respect your friend who is a trans*woman, you'll use her preferred pronouns and call her by her name and not ask horrible invasive questions about her life and surgery and ask for education about being trans then I don't see what the problem is. Or are you just looking for justification for the eggshells remark; cause that was pretty crappy.

N

[MisterOJ]

Well if you respect your friend who is a trans*woman, you'll use her preferred pronouns and call her by her name and not ask horrible invasive questions about her life and surgery and ask for education about being trans then I don't see what the problem is. Or are you just looking for justification for the eggshells remark; cause that was pretty crappy.

N

Not sure from your reply if you are aware of the discussion going on in the other thread or not. But this is more or less what I was getting at. Seems like there's a lot of defensiveness and hostility when the topic of transgendered folks comes up. I don't mean any disrespect at all, I'm just wondering why that is and how it would translate into a real life experience if I ever meet a transgender person.

[emberling]

The thing is, a whole lot of people believe a whole lot of negative and false things about transgender people developed from media stereotypes and mischaracterizations.

You probably don't feel like you 'walk on eggshells' around black friends, and yet you probably manage to entirely avoid comparing them to monkeys, making jokes about slavery, saying they're 'so smart you can hardly tell they're black,' or any number of horribly offensive things that you could do. You wouldn't even think of doing those things. But then, you've been exposed to enough black people, in the media and in real life, that you don't buy into the worst stereotypes. Trans people don't have that kind of exposure.

Generally, trans people are well aware of the problem and mostly aren't going to jump down your throat if you fuck up. But you should still aspire to not fuck up.

[Chaldanya]

Not sure from your reply if you are aware of the discussion going on in the other thread or not. But this is more or less what I was getting at. Seems like there's a lot of defensiveness and hostility when the topic of transgendered folks comes up. I don't mean any disrespect at all, I'm just wondering why that is and how it would translate into a real life experience if I ever meet a transgender person.

I am aware of the other conversation and if you can't see why trans*people would be pissed off at the language used then I just quite honestly don't know where to begin.

For one second put yourself in the place of a person who has grown up feeling like their sex doesn't match their gender. And then add on top of that the horrible comments and discrimination and the snide remarks and if you're MTF the assumption that you just want to get close to women to rape them or attack them. Then read over what people have written and what you've asked about being sensitive and see if it still sounds OK to your ears.

N

[awesome possum]

This Stephen Colbert segment is absolutely amazing. It's about an openly gay mayor of a small Kentucky coal-mining town and the last minute or so will hit you right in the feels

[Weeping Sore]

I am aware of the other conversation and if you can't see why trans*people would be pissed off at the language used then I just quite honestly don't know where to begin.

For one second put yourself in the place of a person who has grown up feeling like their sex doesn't match their gender. And then add on top of that the horrible comments and discrimination and the snide remarks and if you're MTF the assumption that you just want to get close to women to rape them or attack them. Then read over what people have written and what you've asked about being sensitive and see if it still sounds OK to your ears.

N

Well-meaning but ignorant people (I'm going to include myself here) respond well to being informed/ taught about what they are failing to understand. As irritating as I'm sure we are, posts that are honestly trying to convey what we are missing rather than literally trying to make us feel stupid or bigotted would be best. For example, MTF. What's that? I'm assuming from the context, having intact male genitals?

[Chaldanya]

Male-To-Female

[Weeping Sore]

Male-To-Female

thanks!

[MisterOJ]

I think ignorance has a lot to do with it. I have no idea what it would be like to feel you're the wrong gender trapped in a body that doesn't fit. I literally can't comprehend that. It doesn't mean I have a problem with transgender folks. I just don't understand what they've been through.

But what I am getting from these two threads is that it makes them very sensitive to words/ideas that I would otherwise consider innocuous. Now, I'm not saying that they don't have a right to feel that way - they certainly do. But, that also makes me feel like I should be extra careful (ie: walking on eggshells) in any interactions I may have with trangender folks in the future.

[brook]

I'm not actually sure I would say walking on eggshells as you're describing it, is a bad thing.

Until you can feel you know enough not to be accidentally offensive what is so bad about taking extra care with your word choice etc? In the end what is worse? A little discomfort for you or potentially a whole lot of hurt for your friend?

In reality sensitivity and a willing to listen goes a long way, it helps if when you are told something you've said is offensive, you make an attempt to listen to that and maybe, even if you still don't really understand why, accept that sometimes you just may not be able to and trust the people raising objections aren't just doing it for fun but because they are genuinely upset, and modify accordingly.

Karaddin in particular has done a hell of a lot to educate people on here and I've never seen her refuse to answer questions from anyone who seems even remotely willing to try to understand.

[Robin Of House Hill]

But what I am getting from these two threads is that it makes them very sensitive to words/ideas that I would otherwise consider innocuous. Now, I'm not saying that they don't have a right to feel that way - they certainly do. But, that also makes me feel like I should be extra careful (ie: walking on eggshells) in any interactions I may have with trangender folks in the future.

Admittedly, my information is more than thirty years out of date, but when I knew the person I've referred to, the word, "transgender", didn't really exist. She referred to herself as transsexual. Politics hadn't arrived so there wasn't any sensitivity to what words were used, as far as I could determine. Today, there seems to be a greater sensitivity toward words as well as a bunch of words, I had to look up after seeing them in one of these threads, such as, "cisgender".

I'll probably get yelled at for this, but I think it was easier back in the days that people were individuals and groupthink didn't enter into the equation. In private, she was open and candid about things and her humor on the subject was outrageous, but I remember walking with her in New York's Greenwich Village. A group of 4 or 5 teenage girls walked by and when they were about 50 ft. behind us, broke out into song, "L-O-L-A, Lola". I saw the expression on her face. We never talked about that.

[emberling]

I'll probably get yelled at for this, but I think it was easier back in the days that people were individuals and groupthink didn't enter into the equation.

Not really sure who you are referring to with 'groupthink' but the perceptions that get me angry are exactly those that portray transsexuals as a stereotyped group and not as a collection of individual people who often have very different experiences from one another. And the reason they get me angry is not because I really care whether people are offensive - it's because there are people out there whose identity doesn't match their body and who don't think there's a way to fix that, because they see these trans narratives that don't match their own experiences and think those are the only kind of trans narratives, because they see the bigotry against trans people and don't think they are strong enough to stand up to it, because they see cis-gaze characterizations that frame trans identities as a costume and don't think that it would be real enough to satisfy them. I've been there. It's a place without hope and I don't wish it on anyone. So I do what I can to stop the misconceptions that put people there.

[brook]

Robin I think you're wrong if you think that sort of relationship as you had with your friend isn't still possible. If there is a focus now on being sensitive so as not to unwillingly hurt people that doesn't take away from the fact that we are dealing with human beings who are as individual as anyone else - the dynamics of the relationships you form with trans people (and what is and isn't acceptable within them) are going to be as varied as those you form with anyone else.

All people are really saying is try to have empathy when dealing with people and if in doubt ask, respectfully, and listen. Nothing at all you've said in the various versions of this thread makes me think the relationship you had with your friend makes me think that isn't exactly what you were doing.

My best friend is transitioning, we have the same relationship we've always had which means we will talk/joke about stuff that would be wildly inappropriate if I was to bring it up to someone I didn't know very well. Including topics that would certainly come up in any 'things not to say to trans people' list. That sort of relationship isn't in danger just because I would take care not to upset people I don't know as well.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I can't explain it. Maybe I'm just too damned old to figure it out, But, organizing and politicizing anything, just seems to interfere with the personal aspect of things. That probably doesn't make any sense, so I'll go back to alphabetizing my blu ray discs, now. Now you know what I do for excitement.

[TerraPrime]

But what I am getting from these two threads is that it makes them very sensitive to words/ideas that I would otherwise consider innocuous. Now, I'm not saying that they don't have a right to feel that way - they certainly do. But, that also makes me feel like I should be extra careful (ie: walking on eggshells) in any interactions I may have with trangender folks in the future.

I think a willingness to learn is a good thing, and I think being thoughtful enough to care goes a long way to defuse any situation where your intention can be mis-read, as long as you vocalize your thoughts. Polite and simple explanations will do wonders in these situations. You may choose to preface a certain discussion saying you're not familiar with the terminologies associated with these issues and hope you won't inadvertently give offense, or you can apologize after (should any be needed) saying that you were not aware that this is an offensive way of saying things.

But I think unless there's a level of personal connection, sticking to topics that are not about that person's trans* identity might be the best approach. Like if you meet someone at a work social and it is known in the circle that he's a FTM (female-to-male) transsexual person, you probably want to stick to the topics common in these work socials and not ask about his personal life after saying hello.

And if there's a level of personal connection that these questions can be asked, then you already have some benefits-of-the-doubt in your favor, so just be sincere and respectful. And then if you do inadvertently cause offense, just apologize and seek to understand instead of getting defensive. That's all that can be asked.

[karaddin]

Thought I should probably respond to this as well. Mister OJ, I responded to the language in that thread because I felt it was offensive. Saying something is convincing suggests it's not really that. If I were to say you are a convincing Christian, I would be implying you are not really a Christian, you are just pretending to be one for some reason. Depending on the person this may or may not be highly offensive to them. Telling me I'm not really a woman, I'm just pretending really well is really hurtful and offensive to me.

Since I think you are sincere in your attempt to understand I'm going to explain why, but this is a question that isn't your business - I'm choosing to open up and share, but it would be intrusive to pry into this. I lived for 30 years as a boy. The first ~10 were pretty happy, the next 5 slid downhill and the following 15 were spent firmly in the grip of depression. I had periods of more intense depression where I actually realised I was depressed and lonely, the other periods weren't as bad - I was able to have fun and enjoy myself, but I was never really happy and I never lifted out of depression. From the age of 15 I was periodically questioning my gender, I knew I wanted to have a female body at least some of the time, and I knew that transsexuals existed, but the portrayal of them I had been exposed to was sufficient to make me think a) that's not me, and B) I'd never be strong enough to do that.

Please bear in mind that I come from a very privileged background. I'm the 6th child of an accountant, we lived a good comfortable life and I've never wanted for anything including the love of my parents and family. We are a close family and have always been involved in each others lives - the depression wasn't coming from a lack in this quarter.

Despite this in my dark times I still strayed close to suicide. Suicidal thoughts have been a common companion for my whole adult life, and I've strayed close to acting out on them. The thing that always held me back was the knowledge of just what that would do to my mother, and given how much I love her I couldn't do that. Slight tangent - I've wanted to say this in the parenting threads at times, but thought it was coming on a little strong - my mother has always pushed me to succeed, but it's been a soft push. If I had had the parenting that has at times been advocated on this board, the tough love approach, I would be dead now. I wouldn't have been as convinced of the love of my mother, nor as concerned about hurting her, and I would have punched out. It's not that my desire for life would win out, I just couldn't hurt someone I love that much - I still wanted to die, but eventually resorted to wishing I had never been born.

Things came to a head when my ex-wife left me, and I got mighty close to ending it - I drove from Seattle back to Idaho at 3am, and was pulled over for doing 105mph in a 70 zone. There is a good chance that police officer saved my life by pulling me over, as I refocused and stopped being stupid after that. In the fall out from the divorce and in the process of putting myself back together I kept coming back to my gender, but I was never ready to accept the transsexual label. Despite having had sex with transwomen on multiple occasions at this point, and knowing that the stereotypes were bullshit, they still held enough power over me to hold me back. It was upon discovery of the term bigender that I finally made progress, I leaped upon that thinking "yes that's me!" and within a couple of days of this, the depression lifted. And holy fuck does the world feel different without it. Now I'm not actually bigender, and I realised in the process of transition what my subconscious has known since I was a teenager - that I'm a woman, so here I am now. I'll forever be thankful to the bigender community for existing and giving me a safe place to accept myself, even though I wasn't truly one of them.

However, those 30 years of life as a guy have left a ton of scars, along with a whole lot of internalised hate and transphobia. The biggest critic of my gender presentation is the voice in my head that can never accept I look like a woman. So when some random person comes along on the internet and tells me I'm not really a woman, it finds a more than willing audience already inside my head, ready to tear me down. I don't like that, so if i think the person was being unintentionally offensive, I try to educate them. When I think someone is just being an anti-trans asshole, I call them out. There are two reasons for this, the first being that they are hurting me and I'd like that to stop, but the second is far more important to me. There may be someone else reading the thread that is where I was at 2 years ago, or 5 years ago, or 15 years ago. And that person may not have had the happy family life and upbringing I may not have had, this offense may be the final straw that causes them to give up. Or conversely, my calling that person out (or just being open about my story) may be the thing that gets the across the line to move forward and choose life as their real self.

Now with most groups, you might claim that I'm being sensationalist by saying there is that high a risk of suicide, but with the lgbt community in general, and with the trans community especially, I am not. Surveys show 47% of trans people have attempted suicide. Now I don't think anything I've done would have counted as an actual attempt, so despite having been pretty fucking close I'm not in that 47%. Further, to be responding to a survey like that the person has to a) be far enough along to identify as trans and B) have the attempt fail and still be alive. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that when you factor in successful suicides (often by people who no one else even knows the problem) the number is over 50%, which is monstrous and close to 10x the rate in the general population.

So at the end of the day for me, if the outcome of my incessant posting on the subject is that a bunch of people feel like they have to walk on eggshells, and one person doesn't commit suicide where they might have then that's a win. Walk on fucking eggshells, this means far less to you than it does to a trans person.

Robin I'm not sure where the groupthink thing comes from here. I like language and I'm rather hung up on nuances of words, so when I take offense at someone saying something in a manner that I feel delegitimises my gender, I trust my own read of the words and respond accordingly. I'm not taking my queue from anywhere else, it's entirely person. When I'm with my friends I give more leeway, and have a much better sense of humour about the whole thing, but I'm not going to extend the same assumptions of goodwill to random people on the internet that I do to my friends, and I think I'm justified in that.

PS. About 90% of the way through this I bumped my laptop touchpad right before hitting backspace and almost lose it when my browser changed pages, LOVE the board autosave feature.

ETA: And I do take note whether the person is being intentionally offensive when I respond. I was entirely civil to the first person I was responding to yesterday, I was pointing out that what he was saying could be offensive. He learned from that, thought about it and asked about another word that he had heard used since logically to him given what I said that should also be offensive, and he was right and I give him credit for that. He clearly didn't intend offense, and he listened when told it was taken.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I'm not sure if anyone is interested, but I thought I'd share that WWE Superstar Darren Young has come out as gay ( http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3761313 )

I think it's a pretty big deal in terms of raising awareness about the LGBT movement. I wonder how he will be received in private by fellow WWE Superstars though.

[Robin Of House Hill]

karradin,

Your post has caused some mixed feelings. On one hand, I admire your candor, on the other, training and a healthy dose of paranoia, makes me uncomfortable when people reveal so much about themselves.

My use of the term "groupthink" comes from the fact that the time period when I knew my friend, was not too long after Renée Richards made the news. Most people knew that name and that of Christine Jorgensen and that was about all. So, one had the impression that this was a rare occurrence and one had to regard each as an individual. Today, we know it isn't so rare and there are groups with social, legal and political aims and objectives. For me, at least, it makes it more difficult to focus on the individual. I don't know if that makes any sense, at all. It may come from her firm belief that the only way she could survive is if no one knew her background. I accepted that view for years and find myself reluctant to change. So, finding people openly discussing this, still perplexes me.