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Saying something is convincing suggests it's not really that.

That's an interesting semantic argument. I'm not a native english-speaker, but I wouldn't assume convincing implies doubt. (If anything the reverse) "That argument is convincing" doesen't imply it is wrong after all? (pardon for the derail, but these subtle details of english are kind of interesting as someone who isn't a first-language speaker)

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That's an interesting semantic argument. I'm not a native english-speaker, but I wouldn't assume convincing implies doubt. (If anything the reverse) "That argument is convincing" doesen't imply it is wrong after all? (pardon for the derail, but these subtle details of english are kind of interesting as someone who isn't a first-language speaker)

I think this really depends on what it's applied to 'your argument is convincing' doesn't imply that because, well that's what an argument is trying to do.

but think of 'the special effects in that movie are really convincing' 'that costume is really convincing' 'that actor won an award for a really convincing performance' that is the sort of context that is, if not always meant but heavily implied in this situation. That it is a performance, not something actually 'real' just a really good act.

It may not even be meant that way but I think it's the assumption most people would jump to.

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I'm not sure if anyone is interested, but I thought I'd share that WWE Superstar Darren Young has come out as gay ( http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3761313 )

I think it's a pretty big deal in terms of raising awareness about the LGBT movement. I wonder how he will be received in private by fellow WWE Superstars though.

Huh. That's interesting news. I hope he doesn't get shelved or sidelined for it. At least the organization is supportive, so there's hope. I wonder how the fans will react? Will we see derogatory signs during events?

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That's an interesting semantic argument. I'm not a native english-speaker, but I wouldn't assume convincing implies doubt. (If anything the reverse) "That argument is convincing" doesen't imply it is wrong after all? (pardon for the derail, but these subtle details of english are kind of interesting as someone who isn't a first-language speaker)

Great, you are going to get me to derail my own discussion with a English discussion I find interesting :P

In short my feelings are if convincing is applied to an idea, like an argument, there is no implication about other states as there are no other states, an argument exists in itself. When convincing is applied to a person or an object, then the implication is that it is not the thing it is convincing as. Eg A sleeping drop bear makes a convincing Koala, but it's not actually and you don't want to be there when it wakes up.

If I tried to puzzle out the logic I think it's something along these lines (disclaimer: thinking aloud and this is far from definitive): when something is convincing it attempts to change your mind from one opinion to another. A convincing argument sways you from disagreement with the speaker to agreement. With the offensive example here, a "convincing" trans woman sways you from thinking they are a man to thinking they are a woman. But the prior state in that equation is wrong, they are a woman before and after, it essentially empowers the position of the observer to judge the gender of the trans person when only the trans individual can say what their gender is. You are certainly free to perceive my gender incorrectly, but that makes it a mistake on your part not mine. Or as a bigender person on another forum put it, it's not that I'm not passing - it's that you misgendered me. I hope that makes sense?

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I think you are assigning meaning to the word convincing that doesn't exist. If someone says I am a convincing Christian, it's because I go about my life in such a way that people believe I am a follower and believer in Christ. That's true and I would consider it a great compliment. If someone said to me, you really seem like a Christian. That doesn't mean they think I am a non-Christian. It just means I appear to be what I really am.

Now, if I had doubts about my faith, then I might question that compliment. But as there is no doubt in my mind, I can see the compliment for what it is.

Look at the definition of convincing:

  • Capable of causing someone to believe that something is true or real.

  • (of a victory or a winner) Leaving no margin of doubt; clear.

synonyms: persuasive - cogent - conclusive - potent - forcible

There is nothing about that word that implies falseness: Just because you are capable of making someone believe something is true about yourself, does not mean that thing is false. That would be deceptive. If someone said you made a deceptive woman, I could see you taking offense. Deceptive implies wrongness and untruth. Convincing doesn't.

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I would argue that the first definition can connote falseness - that "Capable of causing someone to believe that something is true or real" is not necessary unless the thing is not true or real.

Think about it - would someone ever say you were a "convincing" Christian unless there was inherent doubt or derision? They'd use a term like "exemplary" or "quintessential" instead.

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Oh ffs

What is so hard about 'I didn't mean to offend, I'll try not to do so in the future' rather than fucking continuing to try and explain to someone why they are WRONG and you are RIGHT and you'll use whatever damn word you please. Does it physically hurt to phrase anything any other way?

Also I have never, in my life, ever, heard someone called 'a convincing *member of any religion/belief system*' regardless of how you might like it to be so. That is clunky english and hardly common usage. The closest I can think of is hearing people called 'a real Christian' or 'a good example of Christianity' which could not send a more different message.

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I'd argue that the word convincing is truth-neutral. It neither implies truth nor wrongness. It simply describes what something looks or seems like without assigning truth or falseness.

That's the denotation, absolutely; I would argue that the connotation does imply falseness. But we're maybe a little far afield here.

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As BLU-RAY pointed out, the implication is in your first definition. Regardless, I am a trans woman with practical experience in the subject, and whether you feel the semantic language argument is convincing or not, it is used that way - you can't just wave that away by saying it's not unless you want to take it a step further than denying my identity and deny my entire lived experience. Usage of words changes over time and isn't necessarily reflected in the dictionary definition, would you have argued a gay man was wrong to find the word faggot offensive prior to the dictionary being updated to include the offensive definition? The analogy isn't perfect as convincing isn't in itself a slur, but when used in the context of a trans person it is very much offensive.

I would say that if your response to being told you have said something is offensive is to turn around and tell the other person that their offense is in error and your usage of the word is perfectly fine, I would argue you are not a very convincing Christian.

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This Stephen Colbert segment is absolutely amazing. It's about an openly gay mayor of a small Kentucky coal-mining town and the last minute or so will hit you right in the feels

Awesome.

You're right about the end -> It's good to know people can reject brainwashing and figure out that regardless of whether God exists scriptural literalism [on homosexuality at least] is a dead end philosophy.

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Karaddin, I'm sorry to interject in here, but had to tell you; you are one of my heroes. I love you for sharing so much of yourself and for being willing to reveal so much of yourself and what it's like to struggle with transgender issues. That takes so much guts.

You're an amazing person. Don't ever doubt it. You're one of my heroes. <3. One of these days, we'll live in a world where these attitudes and judgments are non issues; You will have played a part in making that happen.

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I think you are assigning meaning to the word convincing that doesn't exist... There is nothing about that word that implies falseness

Describing something as convincing inherently suggests the possibility that it could also have been unconvincing. If there was no such alternative possibility, then it would be meaningless; unless they're discussing a VR simulation, nobody is going to describe water as convincingly wet. And it's subjective; what one person finds convincing might not be convincing to others.

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Karaddin, I'm sorry to interject in here, but had to tell you; you are one of my heroes. I love you for sharing so much of yourself and for being willing to reveal so much of yourself and what it's like to struggle with transgender issues. That takes so much guts.

You're an amazing person. Don't ever doubt it. You're one of my heroes. <3. One of these days, we'll live in a world where these attitudes and judgments are non issues; You will have played a part in making that happen.

I'm particularly grateful as, for the most part, I'm pretty fluent in LGB issues, but T issues only peripherally. I do actually know (or have met) several trans people, but not to the extent that I would feel comfortable asking questions or learning the issues at this intimate level. I do have a friend who's intimately involved in getting a LGBT/straight alliance in our city's schools, and that was one of the first times I had heard about issues re: washrooms, etc. (in my day, you didn't disclose you were gay or there'd be serious consequences - much less trans). I had mistakenly thought that since gender reassignment wouldn't be available until after the age of 18, schools didn't need to address such things.

Now, I think they deserve just as much respect as anyone else, and I would certainly treat them as such, but some of the responses in that thread sorta makes me feel like if I ever get to know a transgender person, I would spend a lot of times walking on eggshells around them.

I will admit that if I knew someone before gender reassignment, I have a tendency to use pronouns indicating the gender as I first knew them. Ie. If Karaddin and I had been in person friends, I might sometimes still refer to her as "him" accidentally every now and then. Then again, I have the same issue with friends who change their names, etc. - and people who know me recognize I'm pretty darn caring and not a douche, so I'm usually just "grand-fathered" in to using original names for a bit longer than others, and I'm gently reminded of the proper pronoun when I lapse. :blushing:

OK, now for a real question. A friend of mine is working for the city where someone is at the beginning stages of MTF transition. My friend (and her co-workers) have been told explicitly that there will be no tolerance for any comments, discussion, etc. and even a "wrong look" will be met with strict consequences (which I think is pretty good in some ways, a little difficult for other reasons). My friend has no issues at all with someone transitioning - but she does have issues with the person not wearing work appropriate clothes! :laugh: Apparently, the co-worker is coming to work as if dressing for the club - baring her mid-riff, wearing short skirts, and very high heels, etc. - flaunting the dress code strictly adhered to by women in the office before this. Because most people feel comfortable with me personally, I don't often find problems if I let someone know I have some thoughts which may support them, and would they mind if I shared, so suggested she might want to chat that way. She is too scared of any potential recriminations or it being taken the wrong way. What would your personal thoughts be on this, Karaddin?

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Mister OJ, it's time you to stop now. You have been told more than once about "convincing" in context with trans*people and busting out the dictionary is just an asshole move. An actual trans*woman has told you of her experiences and why certain language is offensive and upsetting. So just read, acknowledge and fucking drop it.

N

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OK, now for a real question. A friend of mine is working for the city where someone is at the beginning stages of MTF transition. My friend (and her co-workers) have been told explicitly that there will be no tolerance for any comments, discussion, etc. and even a "wrong look" will be met with strict consequences (which I think is pretty good in some ways, a little difficult for other reasons). My friend has no issues at all with someone transitioning - but she does have issues with the person not wearing work appropriate clothes! :laugh: Apparently, the co-worker is coming to work as if dressing for the club - baring her mid-riff, wearing short skirts, and very high heels, etc. - flaunting the dress code strictly adhered to by women in the office before this. Because most people feel comfortable with me personally, I don't often find problems if I let someone know I have some thoughts which may support them, and would they mind if I shared, so suggested she might want to chat that way. She is too scared of any potential recriminations or it being taken the wrong way. What would your personal thoughts be on this, Karaddin?

Thats a fair question and a tough situation. For my transition at work we got a case manager in from the gender center who talked to my colleagues and outlined acceptable behaviour etc - do you know if they had something like that there? If so does your friend have their details to get in touch with them? I'd say talking to them is the most diplomatic approach. Failing that, talking to her boss and making it clear that it's entirely about not adhering to appropriate work attire, and that it's just a friend conversation that's desired, not disciplinary action would be the safest option.

I actually think the best outcome would be if your friend would be confident that offense wouldn't be taken (and thus the possibility of disciplinary action against her) offering to take her shopping and helping her out with appropriate clothing selection. A lot of trans people early in transition struggle a lot with this, either wearing age or situation inappropriate clothing. It's a combination of factors, we are finally opening up to who we want to be and what woman doesn't want to feel sexy at times? When that's been repressed and built up for a lifetime it's a strong urge, and the problem is we don't have the fashion sense of what works and what doesn't that cis girls tend to learn in childhood/teenage years. So we're essentially teenage girls with an adults budget, it shouldn't really be surprising that things can go wrong :P (not for me of course, I'm just fabulous). The other possibility depending on the type of job is that she doesn't have enough money for a full wardrobe of office attire yet, in which case if your friend became aware of that then perhaps a little more tolerance could be shown while it gets sorted.

Basically however the conversation happens, you want it to be clear that it's a friendly conversation that is looking to improve her work presentation and NOT that there is a problem with her or her transition, but you also don't want to risk disciplinary action so make sure your friend keeps herself covered there.

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Yikes, people.

I'm not your enemy here. You don't have to treat me with open hostility.

I didn't even bring up the discussion of the word "convincing." That was someone else. And then karaddin responded to the discussion with:

Great, you are going to get me to derail my own discussion with a English discussion I find interesting :P

And I took that to mean that she found the discussion of the term interesting and in bounds. I wasn't looking for a fight and I certainly wasn't trying to offend anyone. I still don't understand why that is such an offensive word to transgender folks, but I accept that it is. I've never even had a chance to use it around a transgender person, as I have never met one (again, that I know of) but I for sure now know never to do so if the opportunity ever arises. So to those that I have offended, I am sorry. I didn't mean to.

I have to admit to being a little hurt by some of the responses I've got here. I only started posting in this thread in order to try and gain a little knowledge and insight into a group of people I have no experience with in my everyday life. And I don't feel like anything I said in this thread merits the hostility I was met with. I guess in that respect, my mission was accomplished, though. I just wish there didn't have to be hurt feelings on both sides in order to gain that insight.

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So I didn't want to continue the derail of the "How gay are you" thread, but I wanted to ask the question: Are transgender people super sensitive about how they are perceived/referred to? Because that's what I am getting from that thread.

As far as I know, I've never met a transgender person. Now, I think they deserve just as much respect as anyone else, and I would certainly treat them as such, but some of the responses in that thread sorta makes me feel like if I ever get to know a transgender person, I would spend a lot of times walking on eggshells around them.

MisterOJ - this was your first post in the thread and it is what carried the discussion of whether convincing is offensive over into this thread. I made a long very personally revealing post attempting to explain this, and your later posts seemed to ignore this. It seemed that you were questioning the in context usage as being offensive still so I took it as such, rather than it being on the semantic discussion of whether out of that context the word convincing when applied to a person or thing carries a connotation that the person/thing is not what it is convincing as.

If you had quoted that post of mine in the first place so it was clear that's what you were responding to, or said that you accept the offensiveness in context but wanted to discuss the word generally (or ideally both) you certainly wouldn't have had the same response from me.

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When I came into this thread, I really didn't have any interest in discussing why I thought "convincing" shouldn't be considered offensive. I know that's what sparked the drama in the other thread, but I was more interested in the result, not the cause. The debate on the other thread just really raised my attention and made me think that I would have to be really careful if I ever interact with any transgender people in real life, because something as seemingly innocuous (to me, anyway) as the word convincing can set off a big chain reaction of hurt feelings.

So, I made my original post in this thread, that you quoted above.

Now, when I made that post I thought one of two things would result. Either:

1) Folks would respond to it and tell me not to worry, transgender people generally aren't as sensitive as it appears in the other thread. You really don't have to worry all that much about how you interact with them.

or 2) Folks would confirm that, yes, most transgender people are really sensitive. If you meet one in your everyday life, proceed with caution.

I was thinking/hoping that it would be the first scenario. I generally believe the best in people and figured the other thread was probably all just a big misunderstanding. I came here sorta hoping to prove that hypothesis.

But then, the discussion came up about the meaning behind the word "convincing" and, like you, I found that discussion interesting and shifted my focus to the discussion of that. I like talking about the meaning of words and how they're used in language. And, to be perfectly honest, I think it is fascinating that a word that I would consider totally harmless would be so upsetting to transgender people.

That doesn't mean I'll just charge ahead like a bull in a china shop and use it however I damn well please because I disagree that there's a negative connotation to it. If/when I meet a transgender person, that word will now be on the forefront of my mind when it comes to interacting with them and I will most definitely not ever use it if the discussion of how they look comes up.

So, yeah, I've learned a bit from this thread. It's probably best to be extra cautious in interactions with transgender people. Y'all have been through a lot and carry those scars around with you. I can empathize with that, even if I can't quite imagine what it was like to feel the way you did before going through your change.

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