is varys a warg?

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

This sort of ties into the Varys Blackfyre theory. It didn't really occur to me on my first read through, because I hadn't read the dunk & egg books yet, but the only other character who is described as being able to know things he shouldn't in the available material is Bloodraven and we all know now that his power was at least partially based on warging and greensight. Especially in the first book, Varys is constantly being described as so good at his job as master of whisperers that he must have magical powers, and a few times he does get information back and forth so quickly, even with ravens it would be hard to believe it could move that fast. Let alone the size of the network necessary to get word from all over the world, and the discipline it would demand out of these spies who are mostly children!

For example, think about how quickly he seems to get message back and forth from the Dothraki sea in AGoT, he knows about Dany being pregos practically before she does. I'm no expert on the geography of planetos or sending messages by bird but it seems to me it would take quite a bit of time to get a message across half a giant continent and an ocean albeit a narrow one.

If the prevailing theory about illyrio and varys is that varys is a blackfyre as was his sister who married illyrio, giving birth to (f)Aegon, then is it unreasonable to think varys might have gotten the warging ability we know runs in the targ line? We know BR had it, and one of prince baelor's sons had green dreams, and so did the blackfyre imposter in the second d & e book.

I know Varys and his protestations about magic, but everything else about the man is a lie, so why not that too? It could easily have just been a misdirect. I'm not denying he does have a network of spies, but im leaning towards that its being augmented by some other power. Perhaps the glass candles could be a possibility as well, but im leaning toward warg.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

No... just, no.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

That's all you got? Its a fringe theory no doubt, but there is way fringier stuff out there than this,

[Mini Ghost]

NOOOO!!

[Lord Flashheart]

Maybe he just has a few Glass Candles?

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

That's all you got? Its a fringe theory no doubt, but there is way fringier stuff out there than this,

It's more of a "don't ruin Varys by making him a magical wizard person" reaction.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I get u on that, don't necessarily agree though. What good is having BR in the story though if he's an unchecked force? Its like having Gandalf but no saruman

[Whitering]

No.

[Dr. Pepper]

Bloodraven and we all know now that his power was at least partially based on warging and greensight.

It's more that Bloodraven's First Men blood (from his mother's side) gives him the gift of skinchanging. The common thing all known wargs in the story share is First Men descent.

For example, think about how quickly he seems to get message back and forth from the Dothraki sea in AGoT, he knows about Dany being pregos practically before she does. I'm no expert on the geography of planetos or sending messages by bird but it seems to me it would take quite a bit of time to get a message across half a giant continent and an ocean albeit a narrow one.

Dany's story in AGOT is a bit ahead of the story going on in Westeros. It may seem like it's all happening simultaneously, but if you check out some timeline markers (which several readers have made an effort to document here and here), you'll see that Dany's story is a bit ahead.

Also, if I recall correctly, Varys is visited by Illyrio (seen by Arya) and then news of her pregnancy is brought to Robert. Presumably Illyrio brought this information.

If the prevailing theory about illyrio and varys is that varys is a blackfyre as was his sister who married illyrio, giving birth to (f)Aegon, then is it unreasonable to think varys might have gotten the warging ability we know runs in the targ line? We know BR had it, and one of prince baelor's sons had green dreams, and so did the blackfyre imposter in the second d & e book.

I don't think the Targaryen prophetic dreaming is the same as the green sight which Jojen has. But, without more information about how wargs come to be or about Varys blood line, I think it's likely that he does not have the ability to warg.

I know Varys and his protestations about magic, but everything else about the man is a lie, so why not that too? It could easily have just been a misdirect. I'm not denying he does have a network of spies, but im leaning towards that its being augmented by some other power. Perhaps the glass candles could be a possibility as well, but im leaning toward warg.

Varys doesn't really lie. He twists the truth which encourages the person he is speaking with to come to an alternative conclusion. For example, he told Ned that the person who was responsible for killing Jon Arryn owed everything to the man. Ned assumes he meant Ser Hugh, and Varys doesn't correct him, but we know he meant Littlefinger.

Varys is very good at looking as though he's omniscient, but that's not really the case. He certainly didn't know that Joffrey would have Ned beheaded (nor were his plans prepared for that). When he told Kevan about fAegon, he never said anything about him being son of Rheagar. He's very good at encouraging those he serves to look in other directions, like telling Robert about Dany's pregnancy and not about the parentage of Robert's children. Or another example is when he told of dragons but made it seem like fairy tale talk by also discussing kraken's and such in an embarrassed tone.

We do know that Varys is master of disguise and moves about the city quite freely and nearly unnoticed. He also is known to have taken on one job under a different identity (Rugen, the undergaoler), so it's reasonable to assume that he uses cover identities for other jobs that enable him to gather intel.

So no, I do not think there is any evidence that Varys is a skinchanger. I think he likely believes he is as powerful as Bloodrave and probably even models himself after Bloodraven (what with calling his network 'little birds').

[How to slay a Dragon]

For example, think about how quickly he seems to get message back and forth from the Dothraki sea in AGoT, he knows about Dany being pregos practically before she does. I'm no expert on the geography of planetos or sending messages by bird but it seems to me it would take quite a bit of time to get a message across half a giant continent and an ocean albeit a narrow one.

I was under the impression that this information came from Ser Jorah via ships over the sea, hence him going to the docks to get his reply which is a full pardon...

[Inquisitor Glokta]

There is warging ability running in the Targaryen line, as far as we know of.

The only known Targaryen warg, Bloodraven, happens to have a First Men mother and this explains his ability to change skin.

[Rahgh Neqaj]

First of all, it is amazing how little we know about Varys' family background. That does smell a bit as if a turning point for the plot is hidden there.

Second point: He tells the story how he was turned into an eunuch and it is such a central part of his biography that I assume that a) enough people know about it and b ) at least some people verified it. In turn that means he has to be pretty honest about it. At best, he can hide only little (mis-)informations in it or tell it in a way that misleads only those who couldn't be bothered to verify it. His claim to despise (all) magic might be the lie that he added to an otherwise true story but it is very credible.

Third point: The aim of the blood magic ritual has been omitted. What did this Myrish man try to achieve? Did he really let Varys go or did he need Varys' balls because he was going to turn Varys into an information gathering tool for himself and needed to give Varys some long-range communication ability? (This is a crackpot idea of course.)

Fourth point: Let's assume you despise magic because someone castrated you in order to perform a blood magic ritual. Then you discover to have a very useful magic talent of your own - fast and reliable far distance information transmission. Would you not use that talent?

Fifth point: Warging is not the only way of magical long range communication: Quaithe can talk to Dany in dreams and it is possible that Varys can query his little birds in a similar fashion.

Last point: Magic is coming back. That would imply that Varys is getting better at what he does. But I don't see Varys getting better. Is there something that we haven't been told yet or is the entire Varys + magic idea really just a romp down the wrong direction? Unfortunately, with information dealers such as Varys you never know when they tell the truth. :dunce:

[Kienn]

Varys' info is fully explained by his network of enslaved children from Ilyrio.

[Winterz]

He despises magic so no.

[AsharaSunborn]

I thought a warg applied only to wolves?

So if anything it would make him a skinchanger, not a warg though.

[Dr. Pepper]

I thought a warg applied only to wolves?

So if anything it would make him a skinchanger, not a warg though.

I think most people are clear on the exact definition of warg and skinchanger. It just happens to be easier to write warg and it's more pleasing as a verb than skinchanging is. We all know what is meant when we use warg instead of skinchanger.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

What Dr Pepper said. Both posts.

No way is Varys a warg. no ser.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I don't think the Targaryen prophetic dreaming is the same as the green sight which Jojen has.

I'd have to read it again, but I could swear that in the first d&e book, aegon's older brother describes his dreams as green dreams, maybe not that specific phrasing, but I could pretty sure he makes a distinction about his prophetic dreams being green. As far as the timeline thing goes, I agree dany's chapters are a little ahead, but how much? We're talking about about a month's journey across the narrow sea right? Forgive me if that's wrong, but that alone would take a significant amount of time. Tack on the additional time it would take for the message to travel from vace dothrack to pentos and I still say there's some funny business going on. Like I said the glass candles would explain it as well, but I come back to BR. Why would grrm have a yoda-like BR without an emperor palpatine somewhere? I suppose u could say Mel, but Mel has her antecedents already in moqarro and thoros of myr. Maybe it isn't Varys, but then who? I still say the BR Varys parallels are enough to at least raise suspicion.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'd have to read it again, but I could swear that in the first d&e book, aegon's older brother describes his dreams as green dreams, maybe not that specific phrasing, but I could pretty sure he makes a distinction about his prophetic dreams being green.

I don't have D&E books with me right now, but as far as I recall, they are described as dragon dreams, not as green. Though I agree, they seem similar in that they are both prophetic dreaming.

As far as the timeline thing goes, I agree dany's chapters are a little ahead, but how much? We're talking about about a month's journey across the narrow sea right? Forgive me if that's wrong, but that alone would take a significant amount of time. Tack on the additional time it would take for the message to travel from vace dothrack to pentos and I still say there's some funny business going on. Like I said the glass candles would explain it as well, but I come back to BR. Why would grrm have a yoda-like BR without an emperor palpatine somewhere? I suppose u could say Mel, but Mel has her antecedents already in moqarro and thoros of myr. Maybe it isn't Varys, but then who? I still say the BR Varys parallels are enough to at least raise suspicion.

Above I included two links to two different timelines created by fans.

Dany's story in AGOT is a bit ahead of the story going on in Westeros. It may seem like it's all happening simultaneously, but if you check out some timeline markers (which several readers have made an effort to document here and here), you'll see that Dany's story is a bit ahead.

In the discussions about the timelines, questions have been asked about traveling time. Some travel time doesn't add up and it's apparent that GRRM can be quite free with them. For example, the timeline markers indicate that Cat seems to move much more quickly through the Riverlands than should be possible. We just have to accept that this is the way GRRM wrote it.

With Dany, there may be a bit of that happening. But it's also quite believeable that messages were passed via non-magical means. Dany is married in Pentos, before Jon Arryn is even dead. Robert doesn't receive the message until he and the Starks are traveling back south. Many months have passed between Dany wedding and Robert discovering the news, which means Dany is already far away from Pentos. Several months later, Illyrio and Varys are seen by Arya (she doesn't know who they are, but the reader does) conversing in the bowels of the Red Keep. Soon after, we discover that Robert has learned Dany is pregnant. So far, there has been more than enough time between Dany marrying, becoming pregnant and the messages to be passed on.

The part of the timeline that becomes tricky is the message sent out to poison Dany. It seems to arrive almost too fast. But the explanation for this need not be magical communication. It could have already been set up. Illyrio mentions to Tyrion in ADWD that he never expected Dany to survive the her time in the Dothraki Sea. That may indicate that he had already ensured that Dany would be assassinated after a certain amount of time had passed that ensured she was pregnant and/or had ensured Khal Drogo would be enraged enough at her death to want to attack the Seven Kingdoms. Jorah also seemed like he new to expect messages from Varys in certain locations. There are hints that Illyrio's end goal isn't exactly Varys' end goal, even if they are working together. Varys may have already known what Illyrio planned to do and sent a warning and promise of pardon to Jorah. Jorah has given no indication that he received messages in some magical way.

Even after Varys leaves the scene, information from Essos is still being passed on at small council meetings.

I don't really understand your Star Wars reference as I've never seen the films. I think you are asking why GRRM wouldn't give BR a minion or two to carry out his desires. If that is what you mean, well he's attached Jojen and Bran to Bloodraven. There have also been numerous hints that Bloodraven is watching what is going on, though not participating. He even warns Bran from attempting to participate in what he sees.

I agree there are similarities between Varys and Bloodraven. But that doesn't mean they are working together. They are foils of one another. There are numerous character foils in the series, where similarities can be seen without it indicating they are in league together. For example, Cersei and Dany are character foils, they have a lot of similarities but they are not in league together.

Tze wrote a really nice essay on Varys and Bloodraven. The last paragraph is particularly relevant to the questions you bring up.

[Ser Greg of House House]

It's on everyone's mind when we learn about skinchangers. But I don't think so. His little birds are not actual birds, but mute children.