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ezinne43

A harder Jon Snow

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Jon Show is one of my favourite characters, I think as he has become commander of the Watch, he has become a

emotionally colder and cruel character threatening to kill Val`s baby , he seemed to lost some humanity along the way. Or is this what happens when one achieves power?

Jon did what he thought best for his people. He didn't threaten to kill Val's baby, he only wanted to save Mance's baby by swapping them and sending the other child away. He knew that Stannis will not gain anything by sacrificing just a wildling kid when he needs a king's blood for the red priestess' sacrifice. Anyways, on his POV chapters, I don't think he becomes selfish. He becomes harder. He heed the advice of Aemon to "kill the boy in him". He did what he had to do, and if he made bad choices, he will definitely learn from it.

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Jon has had this position thrown on him, manipulated by Sam. He feels he's not ready to take it on but, as it's landed on his doorstep, he does what he feels is good and fair. He tries to weigh up everything, then he sticks by whatever decision he makes. There's a determination in Jon to make things work, even with a lack of success or support. Others can't see beyond the end of their noses.



The Night's Watch must change the way they go about everything. Jon can see that. If others can't appreciate that change is long overdue, they will be lacking when it comes time to face The Others. Mance knows that. Stannis may yet see there's a greater cause to serve.



This thing of NW not getting involved in whatever's going on in the realm is their sticking point. They think it applies when a threat is made on them, and they ought not get involved. We've seen how the 'old guard' react to prove that.


Change always frightens those who fear change. (I know it sounds awkward but, that's the way it is.) They'll dig their heels in, and fight against change, even if they end up swimming against the tide. It's always too late by the time they realise it is too late to change. (Awkward words again but it's the way it is.)



Jon's not afraid to change. He's able to adapt. That's what he has to do, and stand by decisions however unpopular some may seem. He'll grow into a better leader over time.


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I'm only about 250 pages into DwD, but so far Jon is kicking butt. He grew up a lot through his experience beyond the wall and with the wildling attack; What's-His-Name's order to violate his vows in order to infiltrate the Mance's camp I think was a real turning point for him. I think he's adapting to his new role as Lord Commander really well.



I already knew from a spoiler about what happens between him and Janos Slynt, but I was surprised that it happened so quickly. It's a total badass move in my opinion, and I also think that it earned Jon a lot of respect from Stannis. King S. is not someone to put up with weaklings, and definitely someone to take a hard line on rules, penalties, and no tolerance for insubordination. It's great that it quiets Alliser Thorne as well. Bravo, Jon.


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Well, we know one thing for sure about Lord Snow...




Insolence and back-talk will not be tolerated at the Wall.... just ask Janos...


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Well, we know one thing for sure about Lord Snow...

Insolence and back-talk will not be tolerated at the Wall.... just ask Janos...

He tolerates insolence and back-talk quite well, actually.

He doesn't tolerate repeated attempts at insubordination.

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Jon Show is one of my favourite characters, I think as he has become commander of the Watch, he has become a

emotionally colder and cruel character threatening to kill Val`s baby , he seemed to lost some humanity along the way. Or is this what happens when one achieves power?

I think with that matter he was just trying to shake Gilly's resolve. He needed her to realise that his solution was the only available one that would result with both boys being alive. In both Jon I and Jon II he expresses his concerns with Mel burning the baby and anyone really. That's as far I am at this point so maybe I will change my mind later but right now I feel like he's been dealt a pretty bad hand as far as the Lord Commander-ship is concerned. Also in AFFC when Gilly tells Sam that sending Maester Aemon away even if he died on a boat was at least ensuring that he wouldn't die being burnt, I saw it as her realising that this solution is the lesser of the evils.

Question: why is Bowen Marsh so shocked and against Janos Slynt being executed? Is it because he likes/believes in his leadership or is there a rule against execution at the Wall unless they desert?

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Question: why is Bowen Marsh so shocked and against Janos Slynt being executed? Is it because he likes/believes in his leadership or is there a rule against execution at the Wall unless they desert?

Because Slynt is a Lannister man. Tywin had sent a letter encouraging Slynt's election as Lord Commander, and Jon executing him, in Marsh's eyes, is a direct insult to the IT.

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Gotcha, thanks. I was really confused about that. Reading Jon III helps me understand that but why is he so concerned? The Iron Throne obviously does not care and hasn't since before Joffrey's reign? The worst they can do is continue to ignore them like they have for most of the Lannister reign and Bowen seems to adhere to the idea that Joff, Myrcella and Tommen are not even Baratheons even if others do.



Oh brother, I am feeling like I am watching one of the first doom dominoes being tipped. Mel's vision of daggers and unexpected enemies is worrying me. Jon is giving his friends in the NW the impression that he's not on their side and that he is too cool for school... We know it's not true but he needs to realise that he needs to assure others that loyalty is appreciated and that if he wants to make them get along with the others without requiring the other side to respect them as well, that makes it unfair. Sending Grenn & Pyp is a Bad IdeaTM. I do agree with Bowen Marsh about rangers not being needed (there is not much to find out anyway) and sealing the Wall.


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Gotcha, thanks. I was really confused about that. Reading Jon III helps me understand that but why is he so concerned? The Iron Throne obviously does not care and hasn't since before Joffrey's reign? The worst they can do is continue to ignore them like they have for most of the Lannister reign and Bowen seems to adhere to the idea that Joff, Myrcella and Tommen are not even Baratheons even if others do.

Oh brother, I am feeling like I am watching one of the first doom dominoes being tipped. Mel's vision of daggers and unexpected enemies is worrying me. Jon is giving his friends in the NW the impression that he's not on their side and that he is too cool for school... We know it's not true but he needs to realise that he needs to assure others that loyalty is appreciated and that if he wants to make them get along with the others without requiring the other side to respect them as well, that makes it unfair. Sending Grenn & Pyp is a Bad IdeaTM. I do agree with Bowen Marsh about rangers not being needed (there is not much to find out anyway) and sealing the Wall.

Oh, I agree that it is very odd that Marsh cares more about the IT, which has left them to rot despite the NW begging them for assistance over and over again, than he does about the Others, which are most definitely coming for them. But that comes from the fact that he's an institutionalized man. He's so terrified of change that he is in absolute denial about it. He doesn't want to admit that the Others are coming, he doesn't want to admit they are a greater threat than the IT could ever be.

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I think Jon has been consistently on the side of the greater good. I just think he has slid from Ned's deontological approach to a utilitarian approach. Tyrion would approve.

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I agree with what Jon Snow is doing...his overall strategy of turning enemies into friends is because he sees the real problem...the Others...or White Walkers...and Wights.



Problem is...nobody in the Night's Watch except for Jon and Samwell have seen the Others...and therefore cannot rationalize why Jon's strategy is the wisest one.



Sort of like how the Lannister family just cannot see how Tyrion won the War of Five Kings for them. :P


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I think Lord Snow is just becoming less naive...that's all.

And I think the reason Melissandre sees him in her flames when praying for Azor Ahai is because Jon Snow is the real Azor Ahai reborn.

Interesting that in the first POV chapter of Melissandre she mentions her bed is useless since Stannis is gone...was she intimate with him for the sole reason she believed he is Azor Ahai reborn?

If so, and if she starts to adopt my theory, will she try to corrupt/seduce Jon Snow? Will the newer and tougher Jon Snow be able to resist her charms?

I've reversed my theory that Jon Snow is the real Azor Ahai reborn. I now believe it to be Daenerys Targaryen.

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Jon has had this position thrown on him, manipulated by Sam. He feels he's not ready to take it on but, as it's landed on his doorstep, he does what he feels is good and fair. He tries to weigh up everything, then he sticks by whatever decision he makes. There's a determination in Jon to make things work, even with a lack of success or support. Others can't see beyond the end of their noses.

The Night's Watch must change the way they go about everything. Jon can see that. If others can't appreciate that change is long overdue, they will be lacking when it comes time to face The Others. Mance knows that. Stannis may yet see there's a greater cause to serve.

This thing of NW not getting involved in whatever's going on in the realm is their sticking point. They think it applies when a threat is made on them, and they ought not get involved. We've seen how the 'old guard' react to prove that.

Change always frightens those who fear change. (I know it sounds awkward but, that's the way it is.) They'll dig their heels in, and fight against change, even if they end up swimming against the tide. It's always too late by the time they realise it is too late to change. (Awkward words again but it's the way it is.)

Jon's not afraid to change. He's able to adapt. That's what he has to do, and stand by decisions however unpopular some may seem. He'll grow into a better leader over time.

I agree. It's idiotic how some of the watch can't accept that siding with the wildlings is in their best interest. The watch has first hand experience with the Others, and there's no sense in adding numbers to the dead.

Some of the watch act like their fight against the wildings is different than the houses of the seven kingdoms fighting each other. Horrible things are done on both sides but that doesn't mean peace isn't possible.

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I agree. It's idiotic how some of the watch can't accept that siding with the wildlings is in their best interest. The watch has first hand experience with the Others, and there's no sense in adding numbers to the dead.

Some of the watch act like their fight against the wildings is different than the houses of the seven kingdoms fighting each other. Horrible things are done on both sides but that doesn't mean peace isn't possible.

Problem is "the Others" are an enemy from the long forgotten past not seen in 10,000 years. In other words they are boogeymen. Whereas as the Freefolk have been a constant thorn in the side of the Night's Watch. It is easily understanable that less than astute Watchers and Nothorons consider the Wildlings the enemy because their incursions are uncessing and bothersome.

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The attack by Lothor Brune and Jafer Flowers, the still moving hand sent to King's Landing, and the surivors' accounts of the Fist of the First Men battle is enough evidence to seriously consider the Others a threat imo.

Edit- for the watch

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