R+L=J v.55

[Maxpey]

I would say that we just haven't heard of any moments of Rhaegar snapping- yet.

Remember, GRRM has promised to flesh out his relationship with his father.

We also don't know what his reaction may have been when he found out Lyanna was the KotLt, and betrothed to his cousin. I would bet the likelihood of an irritation for Robert may have gone up.

:agree: I don't seem to recall anyone describing Rhaegar as having a "temper." As other people have said, it sounds like Jon inherited his "temper" from Lyanna rather than Rhaegar. Finally, from what little information we have I would speculate that Rhaegar had Bi-polar disorder rather than Depression. He seemed to have "manic" periods where he became obsessed with prophesy. These would alternate with his periods of "melancholy."

ETA: changed "melancholia" to "melancholy", per Corbon.

[Four-Eyed Crow]

Why does Rhaegar need to have a DSM-IV-recognized disorder? Why can't he just be Rhaegar, first of his name, sometimes melancholy, other times less melancholy, loser of thrones, wives, and rubies, sire to the best character in asoiaf?

I'm not in any way trying to stigmatize mental illness, btw. I'm just saying you guys haven't had near enough couch time with R (or training, I'll wager) to even speculate as to his psychological health. The text doesn't support it at this point.

[The Loyal Rogue]

I am currently re-reading AGOT, and it seems like there are a lot of hints dropped about Jon and I think it established he is definitely a Stark, but not necessarily Ned's.

He gets a direwolf and there is no denying his connection to his wolf is as strong (if not stronger) than the "true-born" Starks' -- Stark

While still new at The Wall, he has the dream of walking through an empty and damaged Winterfell and then being drawn, almost against his will, down into the crypts. Even after he protests that he is not a "real" Stark and only they belong in the crypts, he is still forced to go even deeper. -- Stark

On the Kingsroad, Robert asks Ned about "Wylla" and Ned's mind goes to the ToJ. In fact, thoughts of Jon are often very close to thoughts of the ToJ and to Lyanna's "Promises me, Ned..." refrain. -- This, to me, indicates a connection between Jon and the ToJ.

So I think Jon's Starkness is pretty clearly established. And if we accept the premise that Jon is not Ned's, based on Ned's reactions to him, thoughts about him, not including him in thoughts of his children, and because fathering a bastard would be entirely out of character for the most one-dimensional character in the books, that leaves only two possibilities for Jon's Stark parent: Lyanna or Brandon.

I think it is safe to eliminate Brandon since we hear little to nothing about him. Unlike Lyanna who is often mentioned and referenced, especially in how she looks like Arya, and how Arya looks like Jon. So, in my view, Lyanna best fits as Jon's mother. (Of course, I am making assumptions here, and it is just my best guess.)

That then leads to the big question: If Lyanna is the mother, who is the father?

Limiting myself to just AGOT, I think there is still pretty strong evidence that it might be Rhaegar, though not nearly as strong as for Lyanna.

The big thing that stood out to me is how Ned constantly thinks of Robert as closer than a brother, and his love of Robert is painfully overstated at points. As is his hate of "dragonspawn". In fact, it is this hatred that creates the only known rift between Ned and Robert when Clegane murdered the Targ children. So Ned, loves Robert like family, but is convinced of his utterly inhuman hatred for any Targ. He also makes a promise to Lyanna. Would a promise to his dear sister outweigh his love and loyalty to Robert? Absolutely. But Ned is a horrible liar, so he refuses to expound on Jon's mother; though he does feel obligated to give at least the name to Robert, which is more than he would even give Cat (could this be because he simply refuses to lie to Cat?), which could have been just to appease Robert enough that he didn't ask any more questions. He simply gives a name and leaves it at that. This indicates to me that Ned is afraid to tell Robert nothing because of the conclusions he might draw if left to himself. And if that conclusion is that Jon is a Targ, then Robert will kill him without pity. If this is Ned's fear, then it leaves him no choice but to lie to Robert in order to protect Jon.

I know all of this has been said before, but it is really striking to me on this re-read how absolutely moral Ned is in every action. This means that he would not act dishonestly unless it was actually the moral path in that situation. That is, if lying is the only way to prevent infanticide, than lying becomes the moral path. Thus, Ned is still acting in character, even when lying, because of the complex moral calculus he must apply in this predicament.

[Stannis Lives]

Why does Rhaegar need to have a DSM-IV-recognized disorder? Why can't he just be Rhaegar, first of his name, sometimes melancholy, other times less melancholy, loser of thrones, wives, and rubies, sire to the best character in asoiaf?

I'm not in any way trying to stigmatize mental illness, btw. I'm just saying you guys haven't had near enough couch time with R (or training, I'll wager) to even speculate as to his psychological health. The text doesn't support it at this point.

Ahahahah. My thoughts exactly. I studied psych at an Ivy League school and I'm dying. It's amusing though.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

I'm new to this thread. Are there people who believe jon is NOT a targ because he burned his hand?

Some people believe that, if Jon is part-Targaryen, he did not inherit the "special" Targaryen abilities.

Aegon the Conqueror sat on a dragon's back in the courtyard at Harrenhal while the dragon melted the stone all around him. Danaerys withstood the "furnace wind" of dragon breath in the pit in Meereen. That same furnace wind killed Quentyn Martell.

But Jon Snow's hand was permanently injured by a lamp. And there are other Targaryens who have been harmed by fire.

On the other hand, Jon seems to have the full measure of the Starks' special abilities. Unlike some other members of the Stark family (eg Eddard).

[WildBlood]

:agree: I don't seem to recall anyone describing Rhaegar as having a "temper." As other people have said, it sounds like Jon inherited his "temper" from Lyanna rather than Rhaegar. Finally, from what little information we have I would speculate that Rhaegar had Bi-polar disorder rather than Depression. He seemed to have "manic" periods where he became obsessed with prophesy. These would alternate with his periods of "melancholy."

ETA: changed "melancholia" to "melancholy", per Corbon.

Don't tell pikachu :eek: :box:

[Sordelor]

Ok thx. I agree that its irrelevant. However, GRRM has stated that targs are not fireproof. That seems to be a statement made to cover jon targaryens burnt hand

Sorry, when I talked abouthis hand I didn't know that yet.

[Ygrain]

Aegon the Conqueror sat on a dragon's back in the courtyard at Harrenhal while the dragon melted the stone all around him.

Can you provide the source? Because I've just searched everything from AGOT to ADWD and found zero reference to Aegon doing something so stupid as to melt the castle from below when he can do it from above, consistent with Arya's recollection of Old Nan's tale: "She remembered Nan telling how the stone had melted and flowed like candlewax down the steps and in the windows, glowing a sullen searing red as it sought out Harren where he hid", and with the description of the molten, misshaped towers.

Danaerys withstood the "furnace wind" of dragon breath in the pit in Meereen. That same furnace wind killed Quentyn Martell.

Yeah, and so did her special Targ underwear as well as the whip and clothes on the pitmaster's body.

Really, you may disagree with the interpretation that Quentyn got hit by fire which he didn't see coming as he was shielding his eyes, but whatever hit him was way hotter than the breath that hit Dany, as it set all of him afire, clothes and the whip that he was holding, whereas Dany still had her thin tunic underwear days later when in Drogon's nest. Don't claim it was "that same" when apparently it was not.

[UVA]

Why does Rhaegar need to have a DSM-IV-recognized disorder? Why can't he just be Rhaegar, first of his name, sometimes melancholy, other times less melancholy, loser of thrones, wives, and rubies, sire to the best character in asoiaf?

Lol, but yea, this kind of thing is my least favorite discussion primarily because I don't think Martin applies this kind of clinical diagnosis when writing a character.

[Spears]

Hey all, first post on the forums.

I know of the theory and I read somewhere (but I can't remember where) that Jon Snow would find out who his real parents ae before the end of the series, but I am not sure if I'm remembering correctly or if it was in an interview somewhere or...?

Looking at the cliffhanger in A Dance With Dragon, I'm just not too sure about this anymore.

Could anyone please help me with this?

[Ygrain]

I can't give you the quote but yes, you remember correctly. There is also this instant when someone expressed the same concern and GRRM replied "so you think he's dead?"

[finger]

My life feels so much more secure and less exciting now that I know beyond a reasonable doubt that Jon Snow is a legitimate Targaryen and trueborn heir to the Iron Throne, as well as Robb's named successor as King in the North. I'm really feeling ambivalent about it.

Sorry, but the trueborn heir to the IT is Aegon. Jon can be a dragon's head, yet.

[The guy from the Vale]

Sorry, but the trueborn heir to the IT is Aegon. Jon can be a dragon's head, yet.

Only if he really is Aegon Targ. I see no indication for that.

[Alia of the knife]

:agree: I don't seem to recall anyone describing Rhaegar as having a "temper." As other people have said, it sounds like Jon inherited his "temper" from Lyanna rather than Rhaegar. Finally, from what little information we have I would speculate that Rhaegar had Bi-polar disorder rather than Depression. He seemed to have "manic" periods where he became obsessed with prophesy. These would alternate with his periods of "melancholy."

ETA: changed "melancholia" to "melancholy", per Corbon.

I don't think Rhaegar was a raving loon, but I'm not sure if he never had a temper.

We just haven't heard if he ever lost it, but we have at least three more books to go.

And then there is what Martin says about Targaryen sanity being dependent upon the "flip of a coin."

I think the whole point of Martin having them engage in practices such as polygamy, but specifically incest, is to point to their sense of omnipotence, but also "bad" blood.

Do we know who Aery's mother was? Because it would be ironic if he wasn't a product of incest, but was the one who went mad instead of someone like Rhaegar who is a product of incest, but didn't go mad, (at least not that we know of).

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Can you provide the source? Because I've just searched everything from AGOT to ADWD and found zero reference to Aegon doing something so stupid as to melt the castle from below when he can do it from above, consistent with Arya's recollection of Old Nan's tale: "She remembered Nan telling how the stone had melted and flowed like candlewax down the steps and in the windows, glowing a sullen searing red as it sought out Harren where he hid", and with the description of the molten, misshaped towers.

It is from the World of Ice and Fire. Go to this link:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon_I_Targaryen

Then click through the link on the first footnote.

Yeah, and so did her special Targ underwear as well as the whip and clothes on the pitmaster's body.

Really, you may disagree with the interpretation that Quentyn got hit by fire which he didn't see coming as he was shielding his eyes, but whatever hit him was way hotter than the breath that hit Dany, as it set all of him afire, clothes and the whip that he was holding, whereas Dany still had her thin tunic underwear days later when in Drogon's nest. Don't claim it was "that same" when apparently it was not.

Quentyn and Daenerys were both hit with the furnace wind (which is the same as the "furnace breath" that melted down the Iron Throne).

You keep forgetting that Daenerys did not pick up the whip until after the furnace wind stopped (unlike Quentyn, whose whip burned) and that Daenerys' legs were shielding the bits of her clothes that weren't burned off.

But we can agree to disagree about this once more. I was just answering the other poster's question about alternate theories concerning the significance of Jon's burned hand. I wasn't planning to rehash the prior debate.

[Stannis Lives]

It is from the World of Ice and Fire. Go to this link:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon_I_Targaryen

Then click through the link on the first footnote.

Quentyn and Daenerys were both hit with the furnace wind (which is the same as the "furnace breath" that melted down the Iron Throne).

You keep forgetting that Daenerys did not pick up the whip until after the furnace wind stopped (unlike Quentyn, whose whip burned) and that Daenerys' legs were shielding the bits of her clothes that weren't burned off.

But we can agree to disagree about this once more. I was just answering the other poster's question about alternate theories concerning the significance of Jon's burned hand. I wasn't planning to rehash the prior debate.

Ruby, you should be showing your support on the targ fire resistance string.

[Maxpey]

I don't think Rhaegar was a raving loon, but I'm not sure if he never had a temper.

We just haven't heard if he ever lost it, but we have at least three more books to go.

And then there is what Martin says about Targaryen sanity being dependent upon the "flip of a coin."

I think the whole point of Martin having them engage in practices such as polygamy, but specifically incest, is to point their sense omnipotence, but also "bad" blood. Do we know who Aerys mother was? Because it would be ironic if he wasn't a product of incest, but was the one who went mad instead of someone like Rhaegar who is, but didn't go mad, (at least not that we know of).

I don't think Rhaegar was a raving loon either, but from the tantalizing info. we do have he might have had what we call a mood disorder.

He might have had a temper. As you say, we just don't know. But we do have some evidence that Lyanna might have had a bit of a temper. This is why I think Jon's "temper" might come from Lyanna instead of Rhaegar.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Ruby, you should be showing your support on the targ fire resistance string.

Cool, I'll check it out.

[Maxpey]

Why does Rhaegar need to have a DSM-IV-recognized disorder? Why can't he just be Rhaegar, first of his name, sometimes melancholy, other times less melancholy, loser of thrones, wives, and rubies, sire to the best character in asoiaf?

I'm not in any way trying to stigmatize mental illness, btw. I'm just saying you guys haven't had near enough couch time with R (or training, I'll wager) to even speculate as to his psychological health. The text doesn't support it at this point.

Of course Rhaegar's mental health is all speculation at this point, but obsessive behavior that alternates with periods of melancholy raises a question in my mind about his mental health (and I do have practical experience working in the mental health field).

Plus, it's just so much damn fun to wonder if Rhaegar was a fucking mental case. :D

[Dragonfish]

You keep forgetting that Daenerys did not pick up the whip until after the furnace wind stopped (unlike Quentyn, whose whip burned) and that Daenerys' legs were shielding the bits of her clothes that weren't burned off.

I'm don't see how you can arrive at this interpretation. The only description of her body's position states that she is on her backside when the furnace wind engulfs her (note also the use of the word "engulfs", which heavily implies that the wind touches all of her body). What's more, soon after this occurs she thinks to herself, "If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me." Seems a bit strange to worry about being burned if you've survived just such an event. Surely you would agree that it's far more likely that "furnace wind" is simply a hyperbolic way of describing Drogon's hot breath? How could it be anything else, given the above issues?