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R+L=J v.55


Angalin

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Right, but why don't the dornishman hold the targs, and rhaegar specifically, responsible? Doran is still backing the targs claim and even had a secret pact in place. Wouldn't the dornish despise rhaegar for what he did?

Well, they certainly were upset by what Rhaegar did, according to our author, but once Elia and her children are killed by two of Lord Tywin's men, what Rhaegar did becomes of lesser importance, and since he is dead, going after Tywin becomes the thing to do if they are to take action in response to Elia's death.

I wonder if Doran and Oberyn considered taking action against King Robert as well, say means of an assassination. What might the faceless men have required by way of payment? (Oberyn was in Braavos to sign the document betrothing Arianne to Viserys, he could at least have gone to the House of Black and White to ask.) Crackpot time: they did consider it and that is what Jaquen was doing in King's Landing :) :)

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A few disconnected remarks from my re-read:

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Not sure if this has been brought up before - Jon's dreams about the crypts of Winterfell are usually discussed in regards to his parentage but here we go another interesting piece:

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he’d heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitchdark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror.

He has this dream of the dead rising the night prior they go to examine the bodies of Othor and Jafer Flowers. Is it just me, or does it seem tad prophetic?

And, one more disturbing parallel: when the bodies are found, no animal except Ghost would approach them. Now, when Bran has the dream of his father in the crypts and wants to go down, we have:

“I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”

“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.

“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. “Hodor won’t go down into the crypts.”

And when Osha carries him down, there is:

Summer refused to move from the steps, even when Osha followed the torch, Bran in her arms.

In combination with the above and the iron which is supposed to keep the dead in their graves, this is rather disturbing. It is curious, though, that Shaggydog is already down there with Rickon and doesn't seem scared, and when in ADWD Bran's company is attacked by wights, Summer senses their presence but Hodor doesn't. So, what is down in those crypts? What ancient might still be lurking in that ancient place?

And: both Bran and Rickon could see Ned in the crypts, in his tomb while his bones weren't there yet. Was this merely symbolic of his death, or a hint that some essence of him might linger down there, or a prophetic vision that once his bones are brought there, they will yield some secrets? I find the constant hints at "bones remember" too frequent to be meaningless, especially as we learn from Mel that bones do keep some essence of the person, and we have two important sets of bones here - Ned's somewhere on the way to Winterfell, probably at the Neck, and Lyanna's, right there.

Also, speaking of the ancient:

His son was Rickard Stark, not my father’s father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter.

They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns.

The crannogmen have the blood of CotF and so do the Starks! I can't believe I have missed this!

The Children's cave is full of their bones, and of the essences of their ancestors. The Stark crypts are full of...

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On a separate note, as I was searching a little for the crypts connections, I came over this:

“What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

The juxtaposition makes for an interesting inference: what is it that Lyanna asks this time to fit in the context? Not to reveal that they were married, because Rhaegar indeed did have honour?

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<snip>

On a separate note, as I was searching a little for the crypts connections, I came over this:

“What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

The juxtaposition makes for an interesting inference: what is it that Lyanna asks this time to fit in the context? Not to reveal that they were married, because Rhaegar indeed did have honour?

Interesting post overall.

This has to do with Jon's legitimacy, imo. Since the question of Rhaegar's honor (the dragon's honor) is put forth by Robert, we should interpret it to mean the opposite of what he intends; here he basically says that Rhaegar didn't have honor.

So what would the opposite interpretation mean in connection with Lyanna? That Rhaegar married her before putting a baby in her belly. Otherwise the baby would be a bastard, and there is no surer way to dishonor a highborn lady than putting a bastard in her belly.

So, if you asked Lyanna about Rhaegar's honor, as Robert instructs, she'd (likely) tell you that Rhaegar did the honorable thing and married her.

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“What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

The juxtaposition makes for an interesting inference: what is it that Lyanna asks this time to fit in the context? Not to reveal that they were married, because Rhaegar indeed did have honour?

It's possible. She probably made Ned promise her something relating to the Targaryens or just Rhaegar. Apparently his promise to her included more than one thing (R+L=J)

Now the question is: why would she want to keep Rhaegar's honour a secret?

His honour could be proved if he indeed married her before bedding her

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It's possible. She probably made Ned promise her something relating to the Targaryens or just Rhaegar. Apparently his promise to her included more than one thing (R+L=J)

Now the question is: why would she want to keep Rhaegar's honour a secret?

His honour could be proved if he indeed married her before bedding her

Yes, there were promises, plural.

I think that the marriage had to be concealed because if anyone ever started pondering about the possibility of a child, a legit heir of Rhaegar's would be a thousand times more dangerous to Robert's rule than the half-mad Viserys, and therefore in a far greater danger of his life than a mere bastard of Rhaegar's.

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Ygrain observed:

"Also, speaking of the ancient:His son was Rickard Stark, not my father’s father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King andmarried his daughter.They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogsand secret tree towns.The crannogmen have the blood of CotF and so do the Starks! I can't believe I have missed this! The Children's cave is full of their bones, and of the essences of their ancestors. The Stark crypts are full of...-----"

Hm.... The Singers of the Song of Earth seem too much unlike either the Crannogmen or the Starks for any such union to produce viable offspring. The Marsh King, was, I assume, human, and probably controlled the area around Greywater, and had the crannogmen as his subjects. If he really was a king this is pre-conquest and maybe pre Andal. Or this may all be a jumble of stories Old Nan had told Bran.

Or the Marsh King may have been an Andal king who controlled Greywater from the south and was defeated by the Starks during the time, pre-conquest, when the Andals were still trying, and failing, to conquer the North.

We can hope that the World book may settle some of these questions.

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Yes, there were promises, plural.

I think that the marriage had to be concealed because if anyone ever started pondering about the possibility of a child, a legit heir of Rhaegar's would be a thousand times more dangerous to Robert's rule than the half-mad Viserys, and therefore in a far greater danger of his life than a mere bastard of Rhaegar's.

Promises and lies told to keep them. But Lyanna was at the edge of death when she got Eddard to make those promises and also in a fever. Did she have the time or the concentration or the energy left to do anything more than get Eddard to promise to bury her in Winterfell and to protect her son by claiming the infant as his own bastard child? Did she even have time or energy to say when or whether she wanted her son told of his parentage?

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