R+L=J v.55

[Kosh Naranek]

When the red star bleeds - Ser Patrek's bloody body with stars in the sky

and darkness gathers, - winter is coming per the white raven

Azor Ahai shall be born amidst smoke and salt - Bowen's tears and Jon's wound

to wake dragons out of stone. -Shireen has the stone man's disease and has king's blood. Jon will be on the verge of death and Mel will sacrifice Shireen to save Jon, fulfilling the prophecy and Jon will be reborn as AA.

That is a horrid idea that never occurred to me. Jon took pains to remove from the Wall anyone with king's blood, but did not think of Shireen. (He also did not think of himself - Kings of Winter.) I truly hope that nothing like that comes to pass.

[Stannis Lives]

That is a horrid idea that never occurred to me. Jon took pains to remove from the Wall anyone with king's blood, but did not think of Shireen. (He also did not think of himself - Kings of Winter.) I truly hope that nothing like that comes to pass.

Pretty horrid but has just the right amount of crediblity and GRRM grit. Mel is committed enough to do it. Hate to say it, but I actually think this is how it goes down. To me it's dark, intense, consistent, powerful, and disturbing. This is right up GRRM's alley and will certainly be appeasing to fans rather than an unJon or Jon living his life as Ghost etc. I do think he will spend time in Ghost until Mel goes through with it.

[bernardotroise]

You also have to keep in mind that if he didn't marry Lyanna, Rhaegar would have dishonored her - quite the opposite to what little we know of his character.

I'm not sure about that. If the dishonouring of Lyanna was the key factor to determine if he was an honourable man or not, he wouldn't be remembered as honourable, Because the same people that say he was a great guy, believe that he has kidnapped/ran off with her and then dishounored her.

[Alia of the knife]

Tom Brady and the rest of the Pats are cheaters, especially their coach (JK!).

I hate the Pats, but one good thing I can say about the organization is that they have a low tolerance for criminal behavior (at least when it comes to murdering three people).

Seriously, though, I agree with you that "waking the dragon" clearly has a duel meaning in the text.

Yeah, the whole thing with Aaron Hernandez was bizarre and really sad given he threw his entire life away because of nothing.

[Alia of the knife]

Pretty horrid but has just the right amount of crediblity and GRRM grit. Mel is committed enough to do it. Hate to say it, but I actually think this is how it goes down. To me it's dark, intense, consistent, powerful, and disturbing. This is right up GRRM's alley and will certainly be appeasing to fans rather than an unJon or Jon living his life as Ghost etc. I do think he will spend time in Ghost until Mel goes through with it.

But genius, great call.

Given Martins style and play on words and imagery, I think you nailed it.

We already see Val's revulsion for Shireen, fair or not, that leads to just that foreshadowing.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

But genius, great call.

Given Martins style and play on words and imagery, I think you nailed it.

We already see Val's revulsion for Shirleen, fair or not, that leads to just that foreshadowing.

I agree that this is a great catch! Given the nature of prophecy and what we know of GRRM it seems like one of the most plausible interpretations I've seen here.

I thought of Val too... Doesn't she actually call Shireen "the dead girl"? Are there other examples of Val "seeing"?

[Dragonfish]

I'm not sure about that. If the dishonouring of Lyanna was the key factor to determine if he was an honourable man or not, he wouldn't be remembered as honourable, Because the same people that say he was a great guy, believe that he has kidnapped/ran off with her and then dishounored her.

Uh, no they don't. The only two people to ever say that Rhaegar kidnapped Robert are Bran and Robert. Everyone else simply says he was a great guy.

[Stannis Lives]

But genius, great call.

Given Martins style and play on words and imagery, I think you nailed it.

We already see Val's revulsion for Shirleen, fair or not, that leads to just that foreshadowing.

I agree that this is a great catch! Given the nature of prophecy and what we know of GRRM it seems like one of the most plausible interpretations I've seen here.

I thought of Val too... Doesn't she actually call Shireen "the dead girl"? Are there other examples of Val "seeing"?

I completely agree. Val's reaction to shireen fits perfectly. I've been grappling with this theory for awhile but wanted to learn a little more from the "experts" like you guys before throwing it out there.

[Jon Icefyre]

Pretty horrid but has just the right amount of crediblity and GRRM grit. Mel is committed enough to do it. Hate to say it, but I actually think this is how it goes down. To me it's dark, intense, consistent, powerful, and disturbing. This is right up GRRM's alley and will certainly be appeasing to fans rather than an unJon or Jon living his life as Ghost etc. I do think he will spend time in Ghost until Mel goes through with it.

Oh god sacrificing Shireen is so cringe worthy to the point that it's definitely right up GRRM's alley :devil: lol. Awesome find, I too never even considered Shireen but it totally makes sense seeing as though GRRM is indeed a sick and cruel bastard. I mean Jon and Davos have stopped attempt after attempt of Mel trying to sacrifice innocent children with "king's blood" so far in the story, but you have to think at some point she's gonna find a way to get the sacrifice she wants right?

[Stannis Lives]

Oh god sacrificing Shireen is so cringe worthy to the point that it's definitely right up GRRM's alley :devil: lol. Awesome find, I too never even considered Shireen but it totally make sense seeing as though GRRM is indeed a sick and cruel bastard. I mean Jon and Davos have stopped attempt after attempt of Mel trying to sacrifice innocent children with "king's blood" so far in the story, but you have to think at some point she's gonna get the sacrifice she wants right?

I'll take it one step further. Jon is so outraged at Mel sacrificing shireen that he drives longclaw into Mel's heart and withdraws lightbringer.

[Jon Icefyre]

I'll take it one step further. Jon is so outraged at Mel sacrificing shireen that he drives longclaw into Mel's heart and withdraws lightbringer.

Another excellent find/definite possibility, but personally still think Jon is gonna end up wielding Dark Sister lol.....

[J. Stargaryen]

I completely agree. Val's reaction to shireen fits perfectly. I've been grappling with this theory for awhile but wanted to learn a little more from the "experts" like you guys before throwing it out there.

I think this is a potentially excellent catch, and one that has even been proposed before, iirc. However, I have my doubts based on the way the lines read:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

It's the last part that bothers me. It seems to be saying that AAr will wake dragons from stone, rather than AAr will be a dragon who is awoken from stone. In principle, I like the idea though. It works on other levels. It's just that one part that troubles me.

[Stannis Lives]

I'll take it one step further. Jon is so outraged at Mel sacrificing shireen that he drives longclaw into Mel's heart and withdraws lightbringer.

Oh god sacrificing Shireen is so cringe worthy to the point that it's definitely right up GRRM's alley :devil: lol. Awesome find, I too never even considered Shireen but it totally makes sense seeing as though GRRM is indeed a sick and cruel bastard. I mean Jon and Davos have stopped attempt after attempt of Mel trying to sacrifice innocent children with "king's blood" so far in the story, but you have to think at some point she's gonna find a way to get the sacrifice she wants right?

There has to be a reason for Shireen being at the wall with Stannis gone. It even begs the question if Mel wrote the fake Ramsay letter to get Jon to do something stupid and leave Shireen unprotected.

Another excellent find/definite possibility, but personally still think Jon is gonna end up wielding Dark Sister lol.....

Dark Sister is awesome. That would be cool.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Uh, no they don't. The only two people to ever say that Rhaegar kidnapped Robert are Bran and Robert. Everyone else simply says he was a great guy.

I think it is wierd that Daenerys says that Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint in a way that kind of implies that it was a rescue rather than a kidnapping.

The wierd part is, where did Daenerys hear this story? Viserys? It's unlikely Viserys made that up, so he must have heard it from Rhaegar when Rhaegar returned to King's Landing before the Battle of the Trident. Which makes sense, because Aerys certainly would have asked.

But why didn't Rhaegar mention Lyanna being pregnant? If Rhaegar had done that, Rhaella surely would have known about it, and she would not have gone along with proclaiming Viserys to be the new king once she found out that Aerys and Aegon were dead.

[Stannis Lives]

I think this is a potentially excellent catch, and one that has even been proposed before, iirc. However, I have my doubts based on the way the lines read:

It's the last part that bothers me. It seems to be saying that AAr will wake dragons from stone, rather than AAr will be a dragon who is awoken from stone. In principle, I like the idea though. It works on other levels. It's just that one part that troubles me.

I agree. It might have dual meaning in reference as well to Dany. (Edit: J. Starg made a good point)

[Alia of the knife]

I completely agree. Val's reaction tlo shireen fits perfectly. I've been grappling with this theory for

awhile but wanted to learn a little more from the "experts" like you guys before throwing it out there.

Oh just throw it out there.

So far, so good. :)

[J. Stargaryen]

I agree. It might have dual meaning in reference as well to Dany. I was also thinking of the grammar. The sentence reads a little strange to me. I'm entering crack pottery here but the way it is written, it seems like it could be interpreted as, When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers to wake dragons out of stone, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt.

I don't know about that last part, because it says that AA will be reborn to wake dragons out of stone. Almost as if waking dragons out of stone is AAr's purpose.

[Maxpey]

Uh, no they don't. The only two people to ever say that Rhaegar kidnapped Robert are Bran and Robert. Everyone else simply says he was a great guy.

:agree: Most importantly, "everyone else" includes Ned, the only person you would expect to have loathed Rhaegar more than Robert.

[Godfrey]

If Ned had of told Robert Baratheon about Lynna (assuming this theory is true) what do you think he would of done?

I know robert said he would've killed any targaryen he got his hands on, but no doubt that ned wouldn't of given up the kid to robert. without a war at least.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Is anyone else starting to believe Rhaegar fake his and Lyanna's death using the rubies on his armor? Though the bigger question would be why would he?

Was there a red priest in kings landing at the time?