R+L=J v.55

[Ruby Chevrolet]

I'm don't see how you can arrive at this interpretation. The only description of her body's position states that she is on her backside when the furnace wind engulfs her (note also the use of the word "engulfs", which heavily implies that the wind touches all of her body). What's more, soon after this occurs she thinks to herself, "If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me." Seems a bit strange to worry about being burned if you've survived just such an event. Surely you would agree that it's far more likely that "furnace wind" is simply a hyperbolic way of describing Drogon's hot breath? How could it be anything else, given the above issues?

The book uses the phrase "furnace wind" to describe the dragon's breath that lit Quentyn Martell on fire. I am simply saying that "furnace wind" means the same thing for Daenerys as it does for Quentyn (much like some other posters argue that Lyanna's "bed of blood" means the same thing as Daenerys' "bloody bed").

I am happy to discuss this further but since we have moved away from Jon Snow's burned hand, shall we take it to the thread Stannis Lives started (the link is up above)?

[Joe Pine]

Hey all, first post on the forums.

I know of the theory and I read somewhere (but I can't remember where) that Jon Snow would find out who his real parents ae before the end of the series, but I am not sure if I'm remembering correctly or if it was in an interview somewhere or...?

Looking at the cliffhanger in A Dance With Dragon, I'm just not too sure about this anymore.

Could anyone please help me with this?

Hi, the other way to look at it might be ' would Jon's character develop without the stabbing?' - he'd be pretty much tied to the wall as the LC of the nights watch.

[Ribupr]

FUCK!!!...55...

R+L=J threads now qualify for AARP.

[Spears]

Hi, the other way to look at it might be ' would Jon's character develop without the stabbing?' - he'd be pretty much tied to the wall as the LC of the nights watch.

Thanks, I know it would probably serve no purpose to have him die right now.

But still, I was hoping somebody here would know where GRRM says that Jon Snow would find out who his parents were before the series ended :(

[Alia of the knife]

I don't think Rhaegar was a raving loon either, but from the tantalizing info. we do have he might have had what we call a mood disorder.

He might have had a temper. As you say, we just don't know. But we do have some evidence that Lyanna might have had a bit of a temper. This is why I think Jon's "temper" might come from Lyanna instead of Rhaegar.

That's certainly a possibility, but if that's the case, then the TOJ would soon become the Tower of Misery :P

Seriously though, I think it's like UVA says, and melancholy in the terminology is likely more a nod to the Romantics. However, in terms of temper, "waking the dragon," has been used up until now as an analogy for temper as Dany even used it in that context, and historically it's similar to the legendary Angevin/Plantaganet tempers.

I suspect though that "waking the dragon," as Martin intends it means waking the truth within, also similar to "Dunes" "the sleeper must awaken."

[JonNonRegis]

Thanks, I know it would probably serve no purpose to have him die right now.

But still, I was hoping somebody here would know where GRRM says that Jon Snow would find out who his parents were before the series ended :(

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Many_Questions2

5- Will we know in time, with certainty, the identity of Jon Snow's parents (I don't believe Edric Dayne's tale)? Personally, I really hope he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, despite looking so much like Eddard.

Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually, yes.

Happy to help!

[Ghost's Shadow]

^ Typed up before that post came.

Thanks, I know it would probably serve no purpose to have him die right now.

But still, I was hoping somebody here would know where GRRM says that Jon Snow would find out who his parents were before the series ended :(

I'm not entirely sure if it was voiced as 'Jon Snow will find out', but more 'we will find out'. Even if so, it would be kind of ridiculous if Jon was not the one to find out, to make a mystery out of it in the first place. And added to that, if he were an UnJon-type of person who would not care any more, for there to be no more impact. Finding out that you're the son of a Targ and a Stark which ended in the death of thousands of people, you're possibly no bastard, a crown prince of a lost kingdom... That was put in there to have an impact on him.

And I think it said 'parents', as do people in the interviews when asked about it. That's a hint. ;)

[Ygrain]

The book uses the phrase "furnace wind" to describe the dragon's breath that lit Quentyn Martell on fire. I am simply saying that "furnace wind" means the same thing for Daenerys as it does for Quentyn (much like some other posters argue that Lyanna's "bed of blood" means the same thing as Daenerys' "bloody bed").

I am happy to discuss this further but since we have moved away from Jon Snow's burned hand, shall we take it to the thread Stannis Lives started (the link is up above)?

Ruby, at least once, read the full passage:

And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!”

Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

The hot wind aka furnace wind comes way before Quentyn starts to burn.

[WildBlood]

this again?

[Morienthar]

Isn't there already a thread to put burning Targs and 1/16th or 1/32nd targs in??

Hi, the other way to look at it might be ' would Jon's character develop without the stabbing?' - he'd be pretty much tied to the wall as the LC of the nights watch.

I don't see why the stabbing has to break his connection to the Nights Watch.

[Jon Icefyre]

Thanks, I know it would probably serve no purpose to have him die right now.

But still, I was hoping somebody here would know where GRRM says that Jon Snow would find out who his parents were before the series ended :(

He most likely will, the more interesting thing is what will he do with the information? Especially if Robb's will is also brought to his attention......

[Spears]

Thanks everyone for the help!

It seems I messed up with 'Jon Snow will find out' and 'The reader will find out'. Thanks for finding that quote though! I appreciate the help!

[Ahai I'm Jon Snow]

Jojen explains to bran that both of them were visited by the three eyed crow after near death experiences. I think bran will come to Jon in Jon's near death experience and give him his "third eye". He will show him who his parents are and teach him to see.

this

[Joe Pine]

Thanks, I know it would probably serve no purpose to have him die right now.

But still, I was hoping somebody here would know where GRRM says that Jon Snow would find out who his parents were before the series ended :(

I honestly don't have an answer. But there's plenty of theories on the boards here.

[Old-Growth]

FUCK!!!...55...

R+L=J threads now qualify for AARP.

Or they have hit the speed limit: you could look at it that way. :)

[Old-Growth]

Seriously though, I think it's like UVA says, and melancholy in the terminology is likely more a nod to the Romantics. However, in terms of temper, "waking the dragon," has been used up until now as an analogy for temper as Dany even used it in that context, and historically it's similar to the legendary Angevin/Plantaganet tempers.

I suspect though that "waking the dragon," as Martin intends it means waking the truth within, also similar to "Dunes" "the sleeper must awaken."

Except that it says "wake dragons from stone", meaning more than one of them---three in Dany's case. Moreover that waking was done "under the bleeding star" as per the prophecy. Jon does exactly nothing that is either magical or in any way remarkable "under the bleeding star". He certainly wakes no dragons from stone or in any other way. How anybody who is paying attention to what that part of the prophecy actually says can imagine that Jon has fulfilled it is a mystery to me. I cannot now recall what Apple Martini said in response to that point when I raised it months ago, but she is the only person who has even attempted to address it. Changing "wake dragons from stone" to "wake a dragon" and then ignoring the "bleeding star" part is just plain cheating about what it would mean to fulfill the prophecy, which is what you are doing Alia of the Knife. :(

[Joe Pine]

Isn't there already a thread to put burning Targs and 1/16th or 1/32nd targs in??

I don't see why the stabbing has to break his connection to the Nights Watch.

It might not. But being left for dead by your 'brothers' isn't good.

There's the theories on Jon dying and being released of his oath to the NW before being resurrected in some way or other, but whatever the mechanism used by Mr Martin, I'd say that it frees him to move Jon to other places and that's a good thing for the book series.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Isn't there already a thread to put burning Targs and 1/16th or 1/32nd targs in??

I don't see why the stabbing has to break his connection to the Nights Watch.

Well there are two ways it can go:

1) he's dead for like half a second so technically he's relieved of his watch - though this strikes me as a 21st century legalease take on it; or

2) The stabbing and aftermath functionally disband the Night's Watch, so he's not really bound anymore since the order doesn't exist - my bet is something closer to this since the Wall pretty much has to fall (or more likley be breached) at some point (and thus the Night's Watch fail) if the rest of the kingdom is going to have any inkling of the real danger they are facing. Up until now the Night's Watch has basically been shielding the realm from even the perception of the real danger - sure some of that is no one in the south really believing that the Others are up and walking about, but the reality is the Watch is the only group really paying attention at the moment. Even though Stannis knows, he's only playing lip service to the threat since his focus is still south over north.

[FrozenFire3]

Except that it says "wake dragons from stone", meaning more than one of them---three in Dany's case. Moreover that waking was done "under the bleeding star" as per the prophecy. Jon does exactly nothing that is either magical or in any way remarkable "under the bleeding star". He certainly wakes no dragons from stone or in any other way. How anybody who is paying attention to what that part of the prophecy actually says can imagine that Jon has fulfilled it is a mystery to me. I cannot now recall what Apple Martini said in response to that point when I raised it months ago, but she is the only person who has even attempted to address it. Changing "wake dragons from stone" to "wake a dragon" and then ignoring the "bleeding star" part is just plain cheating about what it would mean to fulfill the prophecy, which is what you are doing Alia of the Knife. :(

It will be GRRM's creativity to establish who's 'cheating' at what. From what I understand of his narrative and the intrinsic nature of prophecy, I'd strongly recommend to suspend rash judgement. Prophecies have a non-linear way to come true and they walk a twisted path on irony shaped legs.

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

At this point NONE of us knows who Azor Ahai reborn is. Strong clues point to Daenerys, I agree. But as per the above mentioned 'ironic, twisted, non-linear' quality of prophecy, I can't exclude a more metaphorical and symbolic interpretation of the passage. It's coherent with Martin's narrative and its classical mold.

There is a clear chronological order to pay attention to. The bleeding red star could refer to Ser Patrek's bloody death and heraldry (five-pointed stars). The smoke, a hint to Jon's smoking wounds. The salt, to Bowen Marsh's tears. 'Waking dragons out of stone' is last in sequence and could refer to events yet to happen. I.e. to anything. I wouldn't emphasize the plural detail though. Waking 'dragons' from stone could well be a simple generalization. Dragons (udisclosed Targaryens?) will be waken (unveiled?) out of stone (the crypts of Winterfell finally releasing their buried secrets?) the same way kings are a rare sight in the North [...] More likely [...] hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned! *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* One king hides in the North under the pseudonym Snow, not a multitude of them.

ETA Not to mention the prophecy could well refer to 'more' than one savior figure. Solving and integrating the debate.

[bernardotroise]

Sorry if this has been already discussed, but I really don't want to go through 55 threads to check it out.

Despite my initial disbelief, I have come to accept R+L=J. But I still don't buy the polygamy stuff.

Rheagar never thought he would die in the Trident. And he surely never thought his children with Elia would be slayed, because in his mind, they were 2 of the 3 heads of the dragon.

Wouldn't it be far easier to just legitimize Jon when he was born? Aegon would still be the first in sucession. And having a legitimized bastard with no claim over Aegon's would be much more acceptable to the rest of the kingdom, than Reaghar having a second wife. Specially when she was already destined to Robert.

We know that only the King can legitimize a bastard. But even if Aerys was against this, Rheagar would just have to wait until Aerys was dead to do it himself. Which would be probably within the time needed for Jon to grow up and become indeed one head of the dragon.

Some will say that the Kingsguard duty is to guard the king and his family. Yes it is. But that doesn’t mean the boy was king.

Arthur Dayne is said to have been one of Rheagar's best friends. He probably knew all about his intention to legitimize Jon (assuming it to be true). So, they were initially guarding a to-be-legitimized bastard. On top of that, all the Lyanna thing was about giving birth to the third head of the dragon! I don’t think that the Kingsguard, specially Dayne, thought Rheagar just had the hots for Lyanna, They knew about his belief that the child would fulfill a prophecy, They knew that he would be the third head of the dragon, PtwP, etc, etc.

So, as they hear all the Targaryes are dead except for Viserys and Dany, and that the war is lost, they have to make a decision for themselves. They can just say: Rheagar was crazy, there is no such thing as three heads of a dragon. This child is a bastard that won’t even be legitimized anymore. Let’s leave him to die.

Or they can say: hey, there are only two targaryens left in this world and the only chance of a third one is right here in this tower. And they surely will need a three-headed dragon to reconquer the continent again, since this war is completely lost. Let’s save the child and then meet the King Viserys somewhere where we can reach him (not dragonstone!).

As for the “we swore a vow”, I don’t see how fulfilling the legendary prophecy and enabling the reconquering of Westeros isn’t protecting the king and his family.