Joshua Ozersky Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 It seems likely to me that Arya is the Valonqar prophesyed by Maggy the witch. Jaime will never kill Cersei. That can't happen. It's completely outside of his character. He would certainly die first. Arya has vowed to kill Cersei and it's perfectly obvious that sooner or later Needle is coming out from under the stairs. The main reason I suspect this to be true is Maester Aemon's remark that the word for "prince" in valyrian is gender neutral. Isn't it possible that valonqar is as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 It could be. But it could also be Sandor. Or Tommen. Or any other little brother/sister.I don't think Arya will get to kill the people in her list. She will kill important people, and Cersei is finished anyway. My bet is she will kill a dragon and/or Dany the Mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revenant6 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 First - Welcome!Second - I'm not a super-expert on the subject, but it has been discussed a lot. Probably because it's a great idea. That being said, it could have some holes.1) I feel like I've seen other people say the translation is "little brother". Taken as gender-neutral (little sibling) that could work. But there's a little snag with the theory...2) Assuming Arya becomes no one, completes her training and becomes a FM, she is forbidden by the House of Black and White to whack any body that she knows. Thus, her shipmates on her voyage to Braavos making her learn their names. She knows Cersei and therefore would be forbidden to kill her.3) But wait! Arya seems to me to not really be one for rules, so she could go rogue! She could change her face, sneak into the Red Keep and do the deed. But how to get in? The Ugly Little girl is the only other face she has. She may need a new face in order to get close enough to Cersei to do the deed. I can speculate a lot about how that could happen, but based on another post...4) What if the curly-haired, 4 golden dragon corpse in the House of B & W was Tyrek Lannister? That would be a great cover. But then we go back to the definition of Valonqar. Does it mean, "little sibling" or does it mean, "little family member?" Can she acquire more faces without the help of the Kindly Old Man?Bottom line for me is it's a really fun proposition. And sadly, I think we'll just have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 2) Assuming Arya becomes no one, completes her training and becomes a FM, she is forbidden by the House of Black and White to whack any body that she knows. Thus, her shipmates on her voyage to Braavos making her learn their names. She knows Cersei and therefore would be forbidden to kill her.Bottom line for me is it's a really fun proposition. And sadly, I think we'll just have to wait and see.Is that it? I've seen people argue that they wouldn't ask them to kill someone they know in a mission, or that they could refuse it. Not that they were forbidden to kill. Jaqen seems to imply he would kill anyone Arya asked, even someone he knew, since it wasn't a mission, but just his homage to the Red God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revenant6 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Is that it? I've seen people argue that they wouldn't ask them to kill someone they know in a mission, or that they could refuse it. Not that they were forbidden to kill. Jaqen seems to imply he would kill anyone Arya asked, even someone he knew, since it wasn't a mission, but just his homage to the Red God.Well, I am probably mis-quoting. The only thing I know for certain is that I really like these books. That being what it is, I was seriously taken to task for showing support for the theory/proposal of Arya being the valonqar in a previous discussion. Truly, I don't know the rules of the FM.I also agree with what you said (in bold) regarding Jaqen's offer to Arya. I remember thinking while reading the books that Arya should have made some different choices with those picks. I guess it could be debated that when the Kindly Old Man sends somebody to "give the gift" maybe the FM/person can't know the victim/"gift recepient". However, if a FM recognizes that he or she must balance the scales of life and death, any person will do.And this is just a TV versus book question, but does Jaqen serve the Stranger/Death or R'hllor? Man it gets confusing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 It seems likely to me that Arya is the Valonqar prophesyed by Maggy the witch. Jaime will never kill Cersei. That can't happen. It's completely outside of his character. He would certainly die first.Anymore than abandoning Cersei's plea for help is out of his character? The foreshadowing and clues seem to point towards him killing Cersei.I cannot die while Cersei lives, he told himself. We will die together as we were born together. We will leave this world together, as we once came into it."If he were dead, I would know it. We came into this world together, Uncle. He would not go without me.""He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 And this is just a TV versus book question, but does Jaqen serve the Stranger/Death or R'hllor? Man it gets confusing...Not really. It's just that since she saved them from the fire, he says she stole them from the Red God. Probably just a poetic way of saying things.And yes... I don't think Arya chose wisely. She could have said Tywin or Joffrey. But... They died anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling Mad Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 And this is just a TV versus book question, but does Jaqen serve the Stranger/Death or R'hllor? Man it gets confusing...Facelessmen serve the many faced god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revenant6 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Syv Aldlark Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Let me counter argue your theory if you will and why I think, no matter how much of a Red Herring it is that Jaime will be the Valonqar.In the beginning we get the idea that both Cersei and Jaime are inseparable and are always together when they can be. This vibe continues up until Jaime's capture and at first Cersei seems distraught but eventually we learn through Tyrion about how many men she has been sleeping with and so on so forth and we realize that sex and 'love' seems to be Cersei's main way of controlling men.We get more this vibe when they get back together- we see them growing apart especially after Tywin's death and then even more when Jaime goes against Cersei's probable wish and releases Tyrion the way he does. He doesn't answer her call to help.So what I think will happen- we've seen Cersei's obsession with fire we also know that Joffrey and Tywin's deaths are slowly working into her mind and that she sees threats in everything. She is letting a mad scientist experiment and we see here reaction to Robert Strong which I am sure is similiar probably to Aerys reaction to the wildfire. Now imagine if Myrcella or Tommen or both die like prophesied? We'll see her and Jaime die because if there is one thing Jaime lives for it's his children. I could see him killing her- because she might try and light the wildfire caches still under KL, or he might kill her so she doesn't burn to death.To be honest having gotten inside Jaime's head I kinda hope the prophecy doesn't come true and that he saves Tommen and Myrcella and flees to Esso's to hide away from them- after killing Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Interesting theory, does it mean little brother or YOUR little brother. Important distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bacon Egg Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Anymore than abandoning Cersei's plea for help is out of his character? The foreshadowing and clues seem to point towards him killing Cersei.^Many this. If Jaime doesn't crush Cercei's soul and then end her life (which, we can assume, will be Jaime's final noble favour to the world), then are no gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Ozersky Posted July 23, 2013 Author Share Posted July 23, 2013 I don't know who, if anyone, will kill Cersei but it won't be Jaime. I feel pretty strongly about that. Hemost certainly doesn't live for his children; they barely register on his consciousness. He may well die with Cersei, but I can't see any bond between them strong enough to require it or for it evento make sense. He has completely transcended his twindom; that is part of his character arc, whichis in my opinion the longest, the most convincing, and the most profound of any character in theseries.As for Arya, I don't believe she really believes in the many faced god. She is learning the secretsof the FM, the way martial arts heroes learn the secrets of shaolin or wudan. Arya will take up Needlework again, bet on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valya of Myr Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I think Margaery is the valonqar.. but yes, Arya does want to kill Cersei, and it's entirely possible she will eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearlthegirl Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Arya could very well be the valenqar. Especially if Sansa is the young more beautiful queen. The Jamie/Cercei death quotes could still be foreshadowing, but just of their simultaneous deaths. Mayhaps Jamie takes the black and martyrs himself at the Wall? He definitely grown estranged from his sister and keeps swearing off fighting various families down south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTywinsGhost Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I saw this on another thread, and I agree. It said that the iron bank will get fed up with cerseis debt and hire a FM to kill her. They will use arya with Tyrions face thus fufilling the valonqar prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bacon Egg Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 It's probably worth noting that the prophecy specifically states that the valonqar is a male."The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."If we take her at her word, Maggy is not predicting that someone else's little sister is going to get a hold of Cersei's brothers face (how exactly would they get Tyrions bits?) and strangle her. Her prophesising surely wouldn't be fooled by a disguise. Whether she's talking about Tyrion or Jaime (and I'll grant that Jaime only has one hand, but his replacement may still be useful) or some other little brother, I'd say she's definitely talking about a male, not Arya.Take into account that old Maggy has predicted that Cersei would marry the king not the prince (check), he'd have 16 kids and Cersei will have three (check), and that Melara would die that night (check - cheers Cersei, you bitch). I think we can safely say that she's pretty spot on with her predictions.I'd like to think that Arya gets some revenge on some people, like Ilyn Payne, but I really doubt it'll be Cersei. I could be wrong but my money is still on Jaime. It makes sense for him to do it, especially if she's saying something like "burn them all", and it would be intensely satisfying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadside Rose Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 valonqar means little brotheri still think it's jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manting Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 The valonqar is jamie - it means little or younger brother - since Cersie came out of the womb first it could only be either Jamie or Tyrion. Tyrion is a world away with tons of shit to do before he gets back to Westeros. Jamie is much closer in terms of geography. They both have there possible reasons for killing her - Tyrion fantasizes about it fairly often.It was Jamie getting the golden hand that convinced me it would be him. That and his ignoring and burning the "I love you, I love you, I love you," letter. It would also be a nice paralell to Tyrions strangling of Shae. Hands of gold are always cold.Also Ser Bacon Egg - Melera doesnt die that night but she does die shortly after maggy makes the prophecy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonmag170 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I also think Jaime is the right candidate here, but for a reason that I dont see discussed much.I agree that it would be out of his character to kill Cersei with no reason. He doesnt kill people who are important to him unless there is a serious, powerful, compelling reason to do so.When he killed Aerys, he was threatenign King's Landing and all of the people in it.I think that Jaime will get wind of what is happening at the wall, and will realize that the realm MUST unite, no matter what. The Lannisters will, by that point, have lost the Tyrells, who will have joined Aegon's forces (not because they think he has any claim to the throne, but because they want the lannisters to fall). The realm will once again be quite divided, and to fight the Others the realm must be united. He will see this threat, and will go to his sister to tell her to surrender for the greater good. Cersei's paranoia, along with her absolute refusal to lose power, will lead her to adamantly refuse, and she may even try to have Jaime killed for the request. And he will kill her, to give the city to Aegon and unite the realm. An attempt which will fail, again, when Dany comes across the sea. THAT would fit his character- sacrificing his sister to try and save the many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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