Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Russo

Theory: Darkstar's father (TWoW Spoilers)

Recommended Posts

I believe that Darkstar is a legitimised bastard of an as-of-yet unamed Dayne Lady and Oberyn Martell.

EDIT: Darkstar may not be a legitimised bastard, but still could be Oberyn's son through an affair with a woman married into house Dayne, or a Dayne woman (in Dorne, the family name can be carried on through the female line). The main crux of the theory is that he is Oberyn's son. Any consequences of him being a legitimised bastard are secondary.

I have mentioned this theory a couple of times before on this forum, but I thought I would post a more detailed explanation of my reasoning for it.

Darkstar's age:

In the Tyrion ASOS chapter before the trial by combat, Oberyn tells Tyrion the story of how he travelled with Elia to Casterly Rock, and where they stopped on the way.

"Do you recall the tale I told you of our first meeting, Imp?" Prince Oberyn asked, as the Bastard of Godsgrace knelt before him to fasten his greaves. "It was not for your tail alone that my sister and I came to Casterly Rock. We were on a quest of sorts. A quest that took us to Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock . . . but our true destination was marriage. Doran was betrothed to Lady Mellario of Norvos, so he had been left behind as castellan of Sunspear. My sister and I were yet unpromised.

Notice the only Dornish castle mentioned is Starfall, the seat of House Dayne. They obviously would have required to stop at other Dornish castles in between, due to the long distance between Starfall and Sunspear. So why is Starfall the only one mentioned?

Assuming Oberyn conceived a child on this visit, the child would be aged at either 26 or 27 at the end of ADWD, due to being of an age with Tyrion, who was born in 274AL, depending on the time it took to reach Casterly Rock. I dont think it's a stretch to put this time to be a minimum of 2 months and maximum of one year. Darkstar is said to be mid-late 20s by GRRM. So regardless, he was born around the time that these events are taking place.

Darkstar's appearence:

Darkstar

He has thick silver hair that falls to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black. His eyes appear black but at closer vantage they are a dark purple - dark and angry

Oberyn

Oberyn has a lined face with thin eyebrows, black "viper" eyes and a sharp nose.[2] His hair is lustrous and black with only a few silver streaks and recedes from his brow into a widow's peak.

Darkstar shares the common features of House Dayne with Oberyn. His eyes are a mix of the Dayne purple and Oberyn's black, his hair a mix of the Dayne silver and Oberyn's black.

EDIT: It has also been noted that both Oberyn and Darkstar share similar features in their nose. Oberyn's described as sharp, Darkstar's aqualine. Which are similar if not the same.

Darkstars mannerisms:

He has a cruel mouth and a crueler tongue

Oberyn talks about himself

"I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldn't look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue."

Darkstar describer by Daemon Sand to Arianne Martell

"Is that what Darkstar is? A man?" Ser Daemon grimaced. "A man would not have done what he did to Princess Myrcella. Ser Gerold is more a viper than your uncle ever was. Prince Oberyn could see that he was poison, he said so more than once. It’s just a pity that he never got around to killing him."

He is compared with Oberyn and described as similar by Daemon, and he clearly shares Oberyn's cruel wit.

He is also described as poison by Oberyn more than once, what better way to describe the son of a viper?

Also, if Oberyn wanted to kill him, why didn't he? Fear of being a kinslayer?

EDIT: Another Darkstar quote regarding Vipers, poison etc.

"Watch where you set your feet," Drey cautioned. "It has been a while since Prince Oberyn milked the local vipers."

"I was weaned on venom, Dalt. Any viper takes a bite of me will rue it." Ser Gerold vanished through a broken arch.

Although not all snakes are immune to their own venom, I believe Vipers are

The attack on Myrcella:

A revenge attack for the death of his father?

Purpose in the plot:

So what would it serve should my theory be true in regards to the story?

If Darkstar is the legitimised bastard of Oberyn Martell, the order of succession for the prince of Dorne would be (stand to be corrected):

Doran (old)

Arianne (A woman)

Trystane (A boy, betrothed to a Lannister)

Darkstar

Is this why Doran describes him as the most dangerous man in Dorne? Because he is the next man in line for the seat of Sunspear?

So let me have it. What are the holes in the theory?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good theory. The connection to Oberyn is very solid. What about the legitimized part?

Yeah I don't know why he would have been legitismed. But King Bob wasn't the kind of King to micro manage.

The Daynes may have felt they required a male heir as Ned Dayne is quite young so they may have been devoid of one for a while, and decided to send a request to King Bob for approval. He may have just stamped it not really caring like Tommen did with Ramsay Snow. They may not have even mentioned he was Oberyn's son, because he was born to a noble woman anyway.

Having a legitimate child with the blood of the Martells and in line for the Prine of Dorne may have been too much to pass up to the Daynes perhaps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are the Daynes in a position to request legitimization, or does that fall to the Martells if everybody knows he's Oberyns child? I know the father could be sketchy and you always know who the mother is, but of the father is not in question can the mothers family still file for legitimization? Or would the puck them be passed to the father?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are the Daynes in a position to request legitimization, or does that fall to the Martells if everybody knows he's Oberyns child? I know the father could be sketchy and you always know who the mother is, but of the father is not in question can the mothers family still file for legitimization? Or would the puck them be passed to the father?

Not 100% on the laws of legitimisation. I havent read anything that says a bastard to a noble lady cant be legitised the same way as a noble man. There may even be a precedent I can't remember?

In terms of who knows about his parentage, I think it's probable Darkstar knows, Oberyn only suspected and Doran also only suspects. Darkstars mother obviously knew but is probably dead. But it isn't common knowledge. I don't think Arianne knows. But perhaps she does, and that's why Doran would ask if she lost her wits? Darkstar is her cousin. She also says their children would be as beautiful as dragonlords, and we all know the Targs loved incest.

The reasons for legitimisation is the biggest issue with the theory no doubt, but I haven't seen anything in the books that explicitly says its not possible it was done. We just don't know why.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesring. And possible.

But I don't think Darkstar's relevance to the story will be about Dornish inheritance line. If he does knows it, I don't think he has any proof. In my opinion Arianne also doesn't know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting theory. Do the timelines match up well ?

It's safe to say the starfall visit was within a year of Tyrion's birth, but most likely around 6 months before.Tyrion would not have been more than a few weeks old when Oberyn and Elia visited. Which would put any child from this visit to be perhaps 2-3 months younger than Tyrion. That matches with Darkstars age as well as it could with the info we have about it. He could possibly be older than Tyrion, depending on how long it took Elia and Oberyn to get from Starfall to Casterly Rock. Considering they were checking a match for Elia and Baelor in Oldtown, they may have spent over a month in Oldtown alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How old would Oberyn have been at the time of conception?

16.

According to the Wiki, Obara Sand was born in 272AL so Oberyn would have only been 12-13 when she was conceived. Not sure if I believe that, but I don't think there is much doubt he was sexually active at this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting theory. But I question whether Oberyn knew about it or not. If he did, and from what we've seen of him, wouldn't he want to claim the child? He obviously didn't, or we would have heard about it in any of the few times Darkstar was mentioned. And Tyrion also mentions that, as far as he knows, Oberyn has never fathered a son.

in ASoS:

So far as Tyrion had heard, Prince Oberyn had never fathered a son.

(Interesting choice of words though "so far as tyrion had heard" does leave the possibility open.)

But if he didn't know about it, I wonder whether you can legitimise a child without knowing who the father is.

It is also possible that Darkstar IS Oberyn's son, but everyone thinks his father is whoever Lady Dayne was married to. Like Joffrey and his siblings.

Notice the only Dornish castle mentioned is Starfall, the seat of House Dayne. They obviously would have required to stop at other Dornish castles in between, due to the long distance between Starfall and Sunspear. So why is Starfall the only one mentioned?

As for this, my belief is they travelled by ship between Sunspear and Starfall. If they didn't need to visit any other castle, travelling through the desert would have been pointless and tasking on Elia's health.

I do like this idea though. It certainly brings a new dimension to Obara's pursuit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this theory, but if his mother was a Dayne then he shouldn't have inherited her surname, even if he were a legitimised bastard...

A better explanation might be that he is the bastard son of some Dayne noblewoman through adultery with Oberyn? Hence he got the name Dayne... oh wait, that would have to be an incestuous marriage for him to get the Dayne-look from his mother AND the Dayne name from her Lord Husband. Maybe the greater and lesser house interbreed a little 2nd cousins and such?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this theory, but if his mother was a Dayne then he shouldn't have inherited her surname, even if he were a legitimised bastard...

A better explanation might be that he is the bastard son of some Dayne noblewoman through adultery with Oberyn? Hence he got the name Dayne... oh wait, that would have to be an incestuous marriage for him to get the Dayne-look from his mother AND the Dayne name from her Lord Husband. Maybe the greater and lesser house interbreed a little 2nd cousins and such?

In Dorne, it is possible for the mother to pass down her name instead of the father, if she's the one who inherits. This was, I believe, the case with Doran and siblings, for example. Their mother was the one who passed down the Martell name.

Though, according to SSM, some Stony Dornishmen may keep the older male Andal tradition (don't ask me for a quote, read it somewhere here).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An interesting theory, definitely, with a lot of potential for the future, if true. Kudos, OP!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At first I thought this was going to be another theory about Ned or some else that's crackpot being his father, but this is a good theory and it seems believable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Elia and Oberyn were older than the Lannister twins.

Definitely the most solid theory I've seen on DarkStar. Good job OP!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except he is a Dayne of High Hermitage not Starfall.

At the time Doran describes him as the most dangerous man in Dorne they aren't aware of Quentyn grisly end.

So as far as Doran is concerned Quentyn is still the next man in line. Not that it matters anyway under Dornish law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting theory. But I question whether Oberyn knew about it or not. If he did, and from what we've seen of him, wouldn't he want to claim the child? He obviously didn't, or we would have heard about it in any of the few times Darkstar was mentioned. And Tyrion also mentions that, as far as he knows, Oberyn has never fathered a son.

in ASoS:

(Interesting choice of words though "so far as tyrion had heard" does leave the possibility open.)

But if he didn't know about it, I wonder whether you can legitimise a child without knowing who the father is.

It is also possible that Darkstar IS Oberyn's son, but everyone thinks his father is whoever Lady Dayne was married to. Like Joffrey and his siblings.

I remember a discussion a while back where it was discussed whether Oberyn only had daughters and no sons, and if he did them he probably only picked the girls and if he had any boys he'd leave them where they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(Interesting choice of words though "so far as tyrion had heard" does leave the possibility open.)

But if he didn't know about it, I wonder whether you can legitimise a child without knowing who the father is.

It is also possible that Darkstar IS Oberyn's son, but everyone thinks his father is whoever Lady Dayne was married to. Like Joffrey and his siblings.

Yeah it is certainly possible he is Oberyn's son by some married Dayne male and was thought to be his son not Oberyn's.

This takes out him being in the line of succession but that's not the be all and end all of the theory.

We know Oberyn was bi-sexual and liked threesomes. Perhaps Darkstar is the result of one of these encounters?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×