why the HBO show 'MIGHT' have f****d up

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Any topic that starts an argument with "The show is good but not as good as the books" is just...unnecessary. No kidding it's not as good.

[ejhawman]

Some changes are annoying, sure. They won't really have painted themselves into a corner until some change they make, or have already made, makes it impossible to go forward as according to the books: some critical event can no longer happen. Martin has presumably told them enough to know what characters they need to keep, and how long, and where they have to be at certain time marks. I don't think they will screw up too badly.

We might ask: what fan favorite character or incident is not really critical to the plot? What do we want to see that they might feel they can cut? A thorny guessing game, as we don't know how much they know.

[Lord Elrosir]

I'd say you're pretty much in the right other than the killing off of Mago. GRRM has plans for that character and voiced his displeasure of killing him in the show on many different occasions. I don't think it really matters though, there will probably be ways of fixing that through the storytelling of the show.

From what tidbits we've been getting, it seems like there will be more characters that die in the show this season that are still alive in the book series.

[Azor Ahoy!]

I have my reservations about the show too. But not because of what's been left out - there was no way to put everything on film. My feeling is that they are going a little too fast. S. 3 ended with the red wedding. and the latest news is that Oberyn Martell and Elllaria Sand are cast for season four. Barristan is already with Dany, and Jorah has been sent away. That suggest a lot of stuff will be compacted into season four, possibly most of ASOS. that leaves season 5 should there be one, as AFFC, and ADWD. My question is, will GRRM get the next book out in time to match the speed of the series, or will the two diverge? How will that work?

Also, they had Locke take Jamie's hand. That robbed me of Vargo the Goat, saying,"My lord, Harrenhal isth yourth". I was looking forward to that.

Jorah hasn't been sent away. He's with Barristan, Daario and the handmaidens in the final scene of Season 3. Barristan was actually with Dany earlier in the books (the final Dany chapter of ACOK had him in the guise of 'Arstan Whitebeard' and Strong Belwas meeting Dany in Qarth) but admittedly they haven't gotten yet to the point in the books when Dany finds out he's Barristan, but since we saw Barristan in Season 1 that would've been impossible to make his identity a mystery.

In fact I don't think they went too fast with S3. They needed a cathartic 'WHAM!' moment for episode 9, and the RW provided that amply, while still leaving a lot of other awesome events for the next season (the PW, 'only Cat', Lady Stoneheart, Tywin and Shae's deaths, the Red Viper vs the Mountain).

But there is a legit problem: Arya is very close to the end of her ASOS arc (she only has two chapters after the RW IIRC), Davos's chapters are done (although Stannis's isn't, it just happens offscreen until he arrives to save the NW) and Bran is totally done with ASOS so if he's going to pop up at all they'll need to bring in ADWD material. Also, interestingly, according to his Twitter feed Art Parkinson (Rickon) is filming in Dublin so that probably means he'll be in Season 4. Although I get the feeling he'll just pop up in one or two episodes showing him arriving with Osha in the Last Hearth and then fleeing to Skagos when Ramsay comes hunting.

Speaking of which, I'm really intrigued to see where the Yara and Theon/Ramsay arcs go in Season 4 since they seem to be on a collision course. Maybe Yara will be close to the Dreadfort when she receives news that Balon's dead and makes the agonizing decision to go home to claim the crown and then everyone will be like "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" (which would be interesting since in Season 2 everybody hated Theon, justifiably)

And, I do believe TWOW has a very good chance of coming out by the end of 2014, and since it will probably be like ASOS pace and size-wise it may take seasons 6 and 7, giving GRRM another three years to finish ADOS.

[Seneti]

I'd say you're pretty much in the right other than the killing off of Mago. GRRM has plans for that character and voiced his displeasure of killing him in the show on many different occasions. I don't think it really matters though, there will probably be ways of fixing that through the storytelling of the show.

I agree. Nearly all of Drogos khalasar left after he died and Mago wasn't the only bloodrider who wasn't ok with what Dany was doing. Whatever part he is going to play in the future can be filled by a different bloodrider of Drogo's khalasar. All they need to do is to let Dany drop a line about how she's surprised to see him and ready to roast his *** and a line from him insulting Dany for dooming Drogo. There, you're done. Takes all of 20 seconds.

But there is a legit problem: Arya is very close to the end of her ASOS arc (she only has two chapters after the RW IIRC), Davos's chapters are done (although Stannis's isn't, it just happens offscreen until he arrives to save the NW) and Bran is totally done with ASOS so if he's going to pop up at all they'll need to bring in ADWD material. Also, interestingly, according to his Twitter feed Art Parkinson (Rickon) is filming in Dublin so that probably means he'll be in Season 4. Although I get the feeling he'll just pop up in one or two episodes showing him arriving with Osha in the Last Hearth and then fleeing to Skagos when Ramsay comes hunting.

Speaking of which, I'm really intrigued to see where the Yara and Theon/Ramsay arcs go in Season 4 since they seem to be on a collision course. Maybe Yara will be close to the Dreadfort when she receives news that Balon's dead and makes the agonizing decision to go home to claim the crown and then everyone will be like "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" (which would be interesting since in Season 2 everybody hated Theon, justifiably)

Let's break this down by character and season structure (part 1 - build-up and introduction to climax # 1 in episode 3; part 2 - aftermath of part 1 and build-up to finale from ep. 4 to ep. 8; part 3: finale, aftermath and possible cliff-hanger in ep. 9 and 10):

Arya + Hound: Really easy. She's a fan favorite, so even if they invent scenes for her, few people will complain. I think part 1 will deal with her coming to terms with what happed at the Twins, possibly including her Nymeria dream. Part 2 will be her continued journey to the Vale, with Sandor teaching her a few more things about killing, possibly reaction to news of Sansa/Tyrion wedding and/or PW, culminating in the battle at the inn. Part 3: Arya gets onto the ship to Bravos.

Davos +Stannis: This is a bit more tricky. I see potential for the following: part 1: Stannis and Mel reacting to Gendry's escape. Stannis prepares to leave Dragonstone, possibly goodbye to Selyse and Shireen. Part 2: news of Balon's and Joffrey's death, journey north, potentially with discussion of what to expect when they get there / how to fight the Others. Part 3: arrival at the Wall, big battle.

Bran + Reeds: They are definitely going to dip into ADWD for this. Part 1: Dealing with the environment beyond the wall, attack by wights/others, saved by CH. Part 2: Journey to TEC, meeting the CotF. Part 3: meeting TEC.

Rickon + Osha: I think this will go down just as you said. Part 1: Journey to the Umbers. Potentially with Osha teaching Rickon how to survive in the wild (remember "I know how to hold a sword"). Part 2: arrival at Last Hearth. Ramsay sends out hunting party. Part 3: Fleeing for Skagos.

Asha + Theon: Agreed. Part 1: Journey to Dreadfort. News of Balon's death. Part 2: Return for Kingsmoot. Introduction of Euron and possibly Victarion. I think Aeron might get cut. Possibly Kingsmoot as well. Part 3: Asha realizes that she just wasted her time and postponed her brother's rescue. Sets back out to rescue Theon. In the meantime, Theon deals with his new life as Reek. Possibly fArya plot.

Edit: Please let me know if any of this needs to be put into spoiler tags. Thanks.

[Lannister Hamster]

I re-read the Jaime-Brienne bath tub scene yesterday and I think that was better on tv than in the books.

Anyway - there's still time for Ser Jorah to kiss Dany

we don't know what's going to happen to Yara but it's doubtful she'll be successful in rescuing Theon regardless of what happens

poor old Edric but I'm sure Gendry will appear where he is needed

a random Tyrell messenger can tell the Tyrell's what's going on in the Shields

Stannis will be everyone's hero when he defeats the Wildlings I'm not sure what matters before then

Arya and the Hound will be awesome and they have enough for an entire season

So Khal Mago is a problem - in the tv series what will be the difference between one dothraki with another when it really comes down to it?

[Lord Elrosir]

Its not "Khal Mago", its Mago. He did not become a Khal. He is a member of Khal Jhaqo's khalasar.

[The Idiots Lantern]

David and Dan are competent people, and they've had George there to answer all of their questions. So anything they've decided to change, they changed on purpose and with a plan to still get the story where it needs to go.

In their Behind the Scenes commentary episode, where they talk about their decision to kill Talisa, they actually adressed the "pregnant Jayne" theory and said they'd decided against doing that. As far as we can tell they are still following the major story beats from the books, and that theory, if correct, would have a MAJOR impact on the plot, that theory is probably defunct. Jayne probably still has a part to play in what's to come, but D&D will find some way to handle that when the time comes.

[2fingers]

I just finished reading AFFC again and although my hatred for that book died down a bit...it is still the weakest book in the series. I honestly do not know how anyone can say that that book alone deserves a season...it does not. So many uneventful chapters and anticlimactic endings. If the highlight of the book is Jaime and Blackfish overrated conversations....then we got a serious problem.

AFFC and ADwD has to be 1 season on the basis of entertainment alone. There is not one damn thing AFFC that will compel viewers to tune in week in and week out and less they add even more needless sex and violence where there was none to begin with.

AFFC and ADwD can work for one season because all the so called "cool moments" are in ADwD but even that book has way too many cliffhangers for its own good. AFFC is going to be one hell of a bore for television standards.

[Lord Elrosir]

If GRRM smears his feces onto a piece of paper in the shape of Westeros, someone on here is going to say its the best piece of literature that they have ever read. Thats what I take into consideration when someone tries to tell me AFFC was a good chapter in the ASOIAF saga.

Its highly uneventful and serves to only introduce more menial subplots and character progression. It is by far the weakest of all the books and seemed to scare a lot of critics into the belief that GRRM may be in decline. ADWD, whilst I enjoyed due to the inclusion of Aegon and the Golden Company, did not help defeat that notion.

Anymore than one season will only create more dead air in the story progression of the show.

[jobmartell]

Pretty sure a Roberts rebellion interlude was the way to slow down the tv series so grrm can TRY and catch up somewhat? D & E also a slim possibility.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

If GRRM smears his feces onto a piece of paper in the shape of Westeros, someone on here is going to say its the best piece of literature that they have ever read. Thats what I take into consideration when someone tries to tell me AFFC was a good chapter in the ASOIAF saga.

Its highly uneventful and serves to only introduce more menial subplots and character progression. It is by far the weakest of all the books and seemed to scare a lot of critics into the belief that GRRM may be in decline.

Anymore than one season will only create more dead air in the story progression of the show.

I remember disliking AFFC initially, as I read the books when they came out and it seemed almost ludicrous having waited that long for that book, only to realize it was essentially incomplete and filled with some pretty meandering plotlines. However, on rereads I do enjoy it considerably more, but I don't think David and Dan have the luxury of putting out even one season of essentially uninteresting TV that will likely be more appreciated in hindsight. That's the stuff that kills shows.

But I agree - from a perspective on the overall narrative, I don't think AFFC and ADWD were very good things for this series. It was 10 years of waiting for more convoluted events and unresolved plot line after unresolved plot line to set up the final two (hopefully) books. I think, unlike what you're describing, that they're still good books and entertaining to read, but certainly not at the level I was expecting for this series.

But fortunately the show has the ability to trim the fat down and keep the meaningful things. There are tons of great events in those two books, they're just surrounded by a lot of character-stupidity and slow story progression. Doing something like making a Robert's rebellion in the middle of the story is just not possible for this show, since they need to retain a ridiculously large cast and can't afford to lose steam as far as audience interest goes. These 2 books are the real test for David and Dan, in my opinion. Overall I think they've done a commendable job thus far, but there's been so much excellence to work with, and I expect that to continue as they wrap up ASOS. But now they have to take 2 huge books and make some tough decisions, as well as invent more plot lines than they had previously in order to adapt them well.

Considering the show viewership is more casual and less involved in GRRM's world, I don't see spending tons of time on the worst plotters ever in the Dornish, nor the dysfunctional and delusional Greyjoys going over very well. A lot of people even on here, one of the most dedicated fan bases of the book series, aren't really all that interested in Dorne and the Ironborn, Even in King's Landing, most of the characters people like won't be present. Honestly, the best thing they can do for themselves is to condense those two books into about 15 episodes and continue to make an entertaining show, rather than a show that sacrifices its quality and viewership for the sake of the original author to finish writing.

Also this thread title should have spoilers tagged.

[Khal Porno]

Nevermind, not worth it.

[aFeastForDragons]

"But my lord when the show gets bogged down with the over drawn out plots from AFFC and ADWD hundreds will stop watching"

"......thousands"

I don't see the show staying as popular when Season 5 comes around. The Meerenese Knot, Stannis trudging through the snow, Bran getting very little screen time, Brienne hanging around, stalemate in King's Landing, Jon watching ice melt, Sansa's winter vacation etc. All these things work well in the book but I really wonder how they will come across on the show. They are going to have to fill in so many plots after AFFC since some characters don't turn up in ADWD.

[Ittiz]

The guys at HBO are working with GRRM. He has helped them decide which characters they will not put in or which they'll merge ect. Although I have heard they've gone against his suggestions before. Khal Drogo kills Mago in the series, but not in the books and it seems Mago will play some non-trivial part in the next book.

I see the show as another source of info. The stories won't be identical and they can be unless the show was way bigger budget. How ever, the major characters and plot lines will be the same. So when they kill Talisa (Jayne Westerling in the book), I think that pretty much disproves the "Robb has an heir" Theory.

[boojam]

Since we know Neil Marshall is doing Ep. 9, why is there any question about the Battle for the Wall?, that's the zinger episode.

To me Arya's recovery of Needle and the fight at the Inn was as big a moment as any in SoS.

What a bunch of short attention spans I see on this forum.

I like good dialog well put as much a big ripping yarn battle.

In sets my entertainment molecules all athrill!

[metr0man]

Some people need a reality check. This show isn't going past 8 seasons (personally I think going past 7 is a stretch).

They have to plan for that length. Which means the major climaxes of the whole series... TWoW, ADOS, The Others, Dany, etc, 2+ worth of books of major plot movement - need more than a season and a half. Sh-t, i'd say they need 3 seasons. Season 6 will be well into TWoW material - I guarantee it.

[Lord Elrosir]

The only reason that 8 seasons looks viable now is that HBO is lacking in really good hour long dramas in the production pipeline to take Game of Thrones' place. True Blood has another season left (possibly two if they try to milk it anymore than they are currently), Boardwalk only has a couple left due to the time limits in the show universe + its expensive for how many viewers it has, and Newsroom has been receiving shitty reviews on its second season, but has been confirmed by HBO execs for a third season (probably because they don't have anything to replace it). Hell, Luck would've been going for season two and three if PETA didn't get involved, and its ratings were not great.

[Khal-a-bunga]

@ Lord Elrosir

Boardwalk Empire creator Terence Winter has said that he's got a six season plan for the show. When you look at total viewing numbers, Boardwalk averages around 11 million viewers, and it's still a contender on the awards circuit (despite the fact that it was left out of the Outstanding Drama category at the Emmy's this year), so I'd fully expect to see the show finish its run. The Newsroom is not beloved by most critics, that's for sure, but the second season actually got better reviews than the first season, overall, and there seems to be a sizable audience for the show. I'd agree that True Blood will probably end with next season.

The cancellation of Luck definitely threw a wrench into their production cycle, but there is a lot in development at HBO right now, in terms of both hour long dramas, and half hour comedies (including the upcoming comedy series Hello Ladies from Stephen Merchant, and the anthology drama True Detective, which is starring Matthew McConaughey & Woody Harrelson). There has also been mention of a new David Milch show that is in the scripting phase, and David Simon will surely be bringing his next brilliant idea to the network. Here's a great site to follow for this kind of information:

http://hbowatch.com/

[Lord Elrosir]

Cool, so I was not far off with my estimation of five seasons for Boardwalk. I enjoyed Newsroom more last year sans the shitty linear plot they are trying to fabricate this year, plus Sorkins talent for monologues does not blend into writing good dialogue between characters. I'm not worried about half hour comedies, I'm worried about their hour-long dramas that are the anchors for the network. I hope some good stuff comes down the pipe, because Starz (The White Queen, Magic City) and Showtime (Shameless, Ray Donovan) are stepping up their game.

You know what sucked about Luck? It started to get really fucking good in the last 3 episodes, then they announced that it was cancelled. Damn PETA.