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Jon's claim to the throne


LordTywinsGhost

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As I have read some where in this forum before. King Robb's Will Legitimizes Jon Snow the bastard of Eddard Stark into Jon Stark son of Eddard Stark.

You cant be the son of Eddard stark and son of Lyanna Stark at the same time (IF R+L=J)

Also Jon is going to be way too busy defending the wall if he is alive.

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That'd legitimize him as Robb's heir, as either King or Lord Paramont of the North. And it would have no meaning anyway, because Jon is a sworn borther of the Night's Watch.

This times a million. We already know from Aemon that it was possible to give up a claim and take the black so he has no claim towards any throne whether it be in KL or Winterfell.

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Proof exists in the form of three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy while Jon was being born. If he was not the legitimate heir (i.e. the legitimate son of R+L) their duty required them to go to Viserys on Dragonstone as Viseerys would have been king at that time, as both Aerys and Rhaegar were dead by that time. They didn't, which implies they believed Jon was their king. Their cairns would be proof enough.

What's confused me is why there has seemed to be no curiousity from the various lords and knights in the Seven Kingdoms as to why three Kingsguard fought and died at the Tower of Joy. Or, if it isn't known they fought and died there, where they fought and died at. These were three of the best knights in Westeros, the equivalent of modern day rockstars. You'd think that at least a few people would be at least curious and would have looked into it, such as Varys.

Maybe they already looked into it and dismissed it as nothing but 3 Kingsguard men making a last stand and a futile show of Loyalty.

I am sure Varys atleast looked into it. also he have his little bird everywhere but not in the Tower of Joy?

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Maybe they already looked into it and dismissed it as nothing but 3 Kingsguard men making a last stand and a futile show of Loyalty.

I am sure Varys atleast looked into it. also he have his little bird everywhere but not in the Tower of Joy?

Interesting, maybe there's more to it than meets the eye. My guess is that all Varys saw was Rhaegar trying and failing to get a third head; nothing more to it

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The thing is Jon will not win the kingdoms by conquering it. He will win the realm by saving it. He will be Azor Ahai reborn and the Prince that Was Promised. They will support the person who went out on the field and saved every man, woman, and child in the realm, rather than a cowardly king who hid behind his walls by his uncle's and father's advice.

:agree: f@ck the claim f@ck the birthright f@ck the blood. The one who deserves it should take the throne.
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Interesting, maybe there's more to it than meets the eye. My guess is that all Varys saw was Rhaegar trying and failing to get a third head; nothing more to it

Yes, Now that I think of it, I really think Varys should know what happened in the tower of joy. He must have wanted to know what Rhaegar was doing?

Or what exactly was going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I mean how can he not know. he have spies and was in the loyalist side during the war.

Now it might be that he knows it all but you know even if R+L=J is true, he might not use it just because he rather have this secret to everybody else.

He wouldn't want another future pretender to the throne. So I guess what I am trying to say is the general consensus is that Only Howland Reed knows what exactly happened.

But I am sure Varys know it too. Whatever the case maybe Varys know what happened.

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The thing is Jon will not win the kingdoms by conquering it. He will win the realm by saving it. He will be Azor Ahai reborn and the Prince that Was Promised. They will support the person who went out on the field and saved every man, woman, and child in the realm, rather than a cowardly king who hid behind his walls by his uncle's and father's advice.

So Jon will save every single person in Westeros by himself and then the grateful people will make him King? Seriously? Even the worst hacks would balk at writing such a mindbogglingly naive and implausible story these days.

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So Jon will save every single person in Westeros by himself and then the grateful people will make him King? Seriously? Even the worst hacks would balk at writing such a mindbogglingly naive and implausible story these days.

Sometime I think maybe the prophecies are just trolling us, As in there would be no one prince that was promised or Azor Ahai, one person kicking butts and taking names.

One god and one culture ruling the others. I mean I rather have few people in the end understanding the dire situation help each other just to survive not to rule or win glory, But fight for their own life and own kins. But alas Westeros is more divided than ever, and still people dont know about the Others are returning or even that they are real.

also if people in Asshai know so much will we see legions of Shadowbinders and Soldiers from the shadowland coming to help with this threat?

I mean do they do anything useful other than talk in riddles and wear a mask?

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Fire Eater came up with an interesting way it could happen. This is the short version of what I can remember. Dany arrive in WF after ADWD 2.0 and is confronted by Jon with proof of his heritage proving his legitimacy as the rightful heir, Dany unconvinced tells him the only way to prove it is for him to climb atop Drogon. Thi will only prove it to her because she believes only Targs can ride dragons. He wargs Drogon and tames him convincing her of his legitimacy. They both go to the wall to fight the others. She dies giving birth to Tyrions child. That's was all off the top of my head, the actual post wa quite the read. Maybe if we are lucky someone can provide a link to it

Here

Rhaegar left the Kingsguard there before the battle of the Trident. King's Landing hadn't fallen. Remember Ned's dream

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

Aegon and Rhaenys were alive (or if Aegon is still alive, thought to be alive). Heck, Aerys was still alive. At best, if R+L=J is true, Rhaegar left the 3 members of the Kingsguard to defend Lyanna and the equivalent of Prince Harry. Not a direct heir at all. It wouldn't prove anything about Jon. It's more likely that Lyanna was pregnant when Rhaegar left and thus couldn't travel and needed to be protected or that the Kingsguard was there to ensure that nobody took her back to marry Robert.

When Ned told the KG that he expected them to be on Dragonstone with Viserys, whom Ned thought was their rightful king their response was "We swore a vow." The vow they swore was the vow to protect their king which was why they weren't with Viserys. That answer wouldn't make sense if Jon was just a bastard, but if Rhaegar married Lyanna then that would make him the rightful Targaryen heir.

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Rhaegar left the Kingsguard there before the battle of the Trident. King's Landing hadn't fallen. Remember Ned's dream

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

Aegon and Rhaenys were alive (or if Aegon is still alive, thought to be alive). Heck, Aerys was still alive. At best, if R+L=J is true, Rhaegar left the 3 members of the Kingsguard to defend Lyanna and the equivalent of Prince Harry. Not a direct heir at all. It wouldn't prove anything about Jon. It's more likely that Lyanna was pregnant when Rhaegar left and thus couldn't travel and needed to be protected or that the Kingsguard was there to ensure that nobody took her back to marry Robert.

There is a crucial period of time after the deaths of Aerys and Aegon while Viserys, who was supposed to be an heir, was on Dragonstone without any KG, when Hightower, Whent and Dayne were oath-bound to go to Viserys but didn't, and when Ned turned up, they cited their vows as the reason why they stayed at ToJ. Unless a king was there, they were oathbreakers.

Maybe they already looked into it and dismissed it as nothing but 3 Kingsguard men making a last stand and a futile show of Loyalty.

I am sure Varys atleast looked into it. also he have his little bird everywhere but not in the Tower of Joy?

Yes, Now that I think of it, I really think Varys should know what happened in the tower of joy. He must have wanted to know what Rhaegar was doing?

Or what exactly was going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I mean how can he not know. he have spies and was in the loyalist side during the war.

Now it might be that he knows it all but you know even if R+L=J is true, he might not use it just because he rather have this secret to everybody else.

He wouldn't want another future pretender to the throne. So I guess what I am trying to say is the general consensus is that Only Howland Reed knows what exactly happened.

But I am sure Varys know it too. Whatever the case maybe Varys know what happened.

Tower of Joy was an old abandoned watchtower in the mountain pass leading to Dorne. How do you propose Varys planted his little birds there without anyone noticing, and how were they reporting to him?

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Here

When Ned told the KG that he expected them to be on Dragonstone with Viserys, whom Ned thought was their rightful king their response was "We swore a vow." The vow they swore was the vow to protect their king which was why they weren't with Viserys. That answer wouldn't make sense if Jon was just a bastard, but if Rhaegar married Lyanna then that would make him the rightful Targaryen heir.

The rightful Targaryen heir to nothing :)

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There is a crucial period of time after the deaths of Aerys and Aegon while Viserys, who was supposed to be an heir, was on Dragonstone without any KG, when Hightower, Whent and Dayne were oath-bound to go to Viserys but didn't, and when Ned turned up, they cited their vows as the reason why they stayed at ToJ. Unless a king was there, they were oathbreakers.

Tower of Joy was an old abandoned watchtower in the mountain pass leading to Dorne. How do you propose Varys planted his little birds there without anyone noticing, and how were they reporting to him?

Do people notice his little birds in Kingslanding and every where else? Did dany notice when Jorah was spying for the throne?

The whole kingdom was going to hell and nobody checked up on Rhaegar and asked him whats up him and with Lyanna?

HE goes to Trident to defend the throne but he can't tell anybody if he married Lyanna? Whats the big deal after Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark have been killed for their little folly?

Now Varys may not have spies there,. But as much as I can see Varys was very loyal or close to Mad King Aerys.

And Aerys didnt even trust anybody much. So Varys could have been instructed to keep a eye on Rhaegar, I am sure Aerys wasnt jumping with Joy hearing about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I am sure there was more than 4 people in tower of joy. And if there was only Lyanna and 3 KG in tower of Joy, and Lyanna dying of child birth isnt that homicidal negligence. Without assistance from other how was Lyanna suppose to deliver the king in a mountain pass near Dorne? So what is KG defending there? If Ned and co gets to her sooner wouldnt that increase the chances of them getting help and in turn maybe save her life. Ned obviously wanted her sister to be alive.

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Do people notice his little bird in Kingslanding and every where else? Did dany notice when Jorah was spying for the throne?

The whole kingdom was going to hell and nobody checked up on Rhaegar and asked him whats up him with Lyanna?

HE goes to Trident to defend the throne but he can't tell anybody if he married Lyanna? Whats the big deal after Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark have been killed for their little folly?

And I am sure there was more than 4 people in tower of joy Lyanna and 3 KG. Now Varys may not have spies there, I accept that. But as much as I can see Varys was very loyal or close to Mad King Aerys.

And Aerys didnt even trust anybody much. So Varys could have been instructed to keep a eye on Rhaegar, I am sure Aerys wasnt jumping with Joy hearing about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Yes, there were definitely more people, and those were definitely picked for their reliability, most probably from Starfall, of loyal Dayne staff. No connection to Varys there. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be much traffic through the mountains between Dorne and the rest of Westeros, so no suspicious strangers lurking around, either - and Varys would have to know where Rhaegar had taken Lyanna in the first place. He is not a mage. If Rhaegar and company kept off the main roads and put on something less conspicuous than the fabled armours, they could virtually disappear from any spy's sight, and Varys would be clueless.

And, no, Rhaegar really shouldn't talk about his marriage to Lyanna prior the Trident - there's one batshit crazy father who is still king and who might get some crazy ideas upon hearing, then there is Dorne who grumble already... best to keep his mouth shut and announce the whole thing after he has won, deposed Aerys and consolidated the realm.

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Yes, there were definitely more people, and those were definitely picked for their reliability, most probably from Starfall, of loyal Dayne staff. No connection to Varys there. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be much traffic through the mountains between Dorne and the rest of Westeros, so no suspicious strangers lurking around, either - and Varys would have to know where Rhaegar had taken Lyanna in the first place. He is not a mage. If Rhaegar and company kept off the main roads and put on something less conspicuous than the fabled armours, they could virtually disappear from any spy's sight, and Varys would be clueless.

And, no, Rhaegar really shouldn't talk about his marriage to Lyanna prior the Trident - there's one batshit crazy father who is still king and who might get some crazy ideas upon hearing, then there is Dorne who grumble already... best to keep his mouth shut and announce the whole thing after he has won, deposed Aerys and consolidated the realm.

Very nicely put. I fear I will never be able to shake my doubt for R+L=J. until I see it revealed in the books. I accept the probability of it being true very high and very logical.

My personal feelings are different however.

But even if R+L=J , how to disprove Aegon, and Will Jon even declare himself? I dont see too many people rallying behind him other than. maybe the North if Rickon is King in the North.

But the whole deal was that North will be independent not subject to the Iron Throne.

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