Jon's claim to the throne

[Fire Eater]

The rightful Targaryen heir to nothing :)

At the time yes, but in the future the seven kingdoms from the Wall to the Arbor.

[joluoto]

why everytime a discution have to be hodored?

He deserves the throne.

[Dragonfish]

As has been stated in numerous other threads... the World of Ice and Fire app, approved by GRRM, states that Robb legitimized Jon in his will and made him his heir. So the statement that "no king has ever legitimized Jon" is not strictly correct. Whether the rest of the kingdom recognizes Robb's authority as King of the North is another question... but actually, regardless, Robb was at least Lord of Winterfell at the time, so his legitimization of Jon should stand anyway.

A lord cannot legitimize a bastard, so Robb's will is valid only in the eyes of those who recognize him as king.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

I don't read the "we made a vow" statement as implying that the rightful King is in the Tower of Joy. Remember, after Rhaegar dies at the Trident, both Aerys and Aegon were alive. If they were truly just upholding their vows as Kingsguard, they should have gone to King's Landing and defended the King. Instead, they were "far away" when Jaime killed Aerys and the Mountain killed (or didn't) kill Aegon and Rhaenys. Indeed, Rhaegar likely believed he would win (or at least survive) the battle of the Trident. I don't see him leaving the best of the Kingsguard there in the off chance that he, Aerys and Aegon were all killed and that his child with Lyanna would become the heir. That was a fairly remote possibility when he left. What was more likely was that people seeking to end the rebellion would try to give Lyanna to Robert to get peace. Or that a certain hot-tempered brother of Elia would come and try to kill Lyanna for seducing Rhaegar. Those would be a disastrous outcomes that Rhaegar couldn't allow to have happen.

My guess is that either Rhaegar or Lyanna extracted a separate vow from the Kingsguard that they would not allow Lyanna to be taken to Robert. That's the vow that held them in the Dornish mountains while three generations of Targaryen kings were killed.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I don't read the "we made a vow" statement as implying that the rightful King is in the Tower of Joy. Remember, after Rhaegar dies at the Trident, both Aerys and Aegon were alive. If they were truly just upholding their vows as Kingsguard, they should have gone to King's Landing and defended the King. Instead, they were "far away" when Jaime killed Aerys and the Mountain killed (or didn't) kill Aegon and Rhaenys. Indeed, Rhaegar likely believed he would win (or at least survive) the battle of the Trident. I don't see him leaving the best of the Kingsguard there in the off chance that he, Aerys and Aegon were all killed and that his child with Lyanna would become the heir. That was a fairly remote possibility when he left. What was more likely was that people seeking to end the rebellion would try to give Lyanna to Robert to get peace. Or that a certain hot-tempered brother of Elia would come and try to kill Lyanna for seducing Rhaegar. Those would be a disastrous outcomes that Rhaegar couldn't allow to have happen.

My guess is that either Rhaegar or Lyanna extracted a separate vow from the Kingsguard that they would not allow Lyanna to be taken to Robert. That's the vow that held them in the Dornish mountains while three generations of Targaryen kings were killed.

If she married Rhaegar then yes this is likely what happened. As queen it is their duty to protect her and her child.

[Dragonfish]

I don't read the "we made a vow" statement as implying that the rightful King is in the Tower of Joy. Remember, after Rhaegar dies at the Trident, both Aerys and Aegon were alive. If they were truly just upholding their vows as Kingsguard, they should have gone to King's Landing and defended the King. Instead, they were "far away" when Jaime killed Aerys and the Mountain killed (or didn't) kill Aegon and Rhaenys.

First of all, at the time of the Trident but before the Sack, Aerys still technically had Kingsguard with him, and as long as at least one Kingsguard knight is with him, their oath is being fulfilled. It's only after Aerys' death that their decision to stay put becomes suspicious, as Viserys had no Kingsguard with him at that time.

Second of all, it's important to remember that news doesn't travel instantaneously in Westeros. By the time word had reached the Kingsguard about what happened on the Trident, the king would probably have already been dead.

Indeed, Rhaegar likely believed he would win (or at least survive) the battle of the Trident. I don't see him leaving the best of the Kingsguard there in the off chance that he, Aerys and Aegon were all killed and that his child with Lyanna would become the heir.

I agree that Rhaegar probably had other reasons for leaving the Kingsguard there, but again, that doesn't really matter. What matters is why the Kingsguard chose to stay after the Sack.

My guess is that either Rhaegar or Lyanna extracted a separate vow from the Kingsguard that they would not allow Lyanna to be taken to Robert. That's the vow that held them in the Dornish mountains while three generations of Targaryen kings were killed.

But that would make them delinquent in their vow to protect the king after the Sack, which is described on two separate occasions (IIRC) as their "first duty." Can you imagine these three choosing to abandon their imperiled king to fulfill some other recently-made vow? And can you imagine them vaunting their honor as Kingsguard at the same time that they're doing this, as Ned recalls in his dream?

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Even if it truth, I doubt the others lords will believe this Story and throw their support to Jon, Targaryen's loyalists already have two contenders, Dany and Aegon. Jon has more chance to have the support of the North if they believe is the son of Ned, and i don't think Dorne would've appreciated this story knowing Rhaegar was supposed to be with Elia. And don't forget that there are many lords who are not Targs loyalist like the Vale, Riverlands, Stormlands and Lannisters.

But consider how we got to find out about Cersei's children not having been fathered by Robert - all that was required was proof that none of them had black hair.

We are all familiar with the concept of regressive genes in the real world, but unless you are a scientist, it would be close to impossible to pre-determine whether a child of dark-haired parents will also grow to possess dark hair - yet this relatively simple concept was easily grasped in Westeros and was sufficient enough to persuade Ned that Robert's children were indeed Jaime Lannister's.

I'm not saying that identifying Jon as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna will entail identifying hair colour, however it could be an equally simple concept which is enough to persuade the people of Westeros that Jon is who he says he is. Therefore, a wedding cloak or the crown of winter might be sufficient.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Can you imagine these three choosing to abandon their imperiled king to fulfill some other recently-made vow? And can you imagine them vaunting their honor as Kingsguard at the same time that they're doing this, as Ned recalls in his dream?

I can actually. Remember, it was pretty bad for King Aerys' safety for Rhaegar and Lyanna to be at the Tower of Joy let alone for three senior members of the Kingsguard to sit idly by while lesser knights botch the quelling of Robert's Rebellion. There's a strong argument that they should never have agreed to help Rhaegar or Rhaegar and Lyanna run away in the first place. They did it because they, like everybody else in Westeros, was in love Rhaegar Targaryen. This guy attracted everyone he met and inspired instant loyalty. You didn't have to be Jon Conington to fall in love with him.

Remember, Rhaegar had to be begged to lead the defense of the Trident. It's entirely within reason to think that when he was being lobbied, part of the deal he struck was for those three knights to stay defend and Lyanna to the death. If they made that promise to the crowned prince, going after Viserys would have been secondary. They also don't say that Ser Willem Darry is misguided in what he's doing. All they say, is that they don't flee. Which could be taken as implying that there's still a Targ on the mainland but could also mean that as a matter principle, they don't run away; they fight their enemies. Ned's entire line of questioning in that dream sequence is about what he views as honourable men doing things that he can't understand. I would contend that the fact that he's still asking the questions after all this time implies that he still doesn't really understand why they did what they did. He knows who Lyanna's child is. What upsets him is that he had to kill these honourable knights and he had to lose so many of his own men doing it. He sees it as pointless. Even after all those years.

[Twinslayer]

If she married Rhaegar then yes this is likely what happened. As queen it is their duty to protect her and her child.

Let's assume for a second that Rhaegar and Lyanna went through some kind of secret wedding ceremony. Polygamy has not been practiced in Westeros for hundreds of years. And it has always been very controversial such that GRRM has said that the old Targs got away with it only because they had dragons and they could do what they wanted.

Now, there are only two "present day" people who comment on the possibility of a polygamous marriage. Jon Connington says in ADWD that Aegon cannot make a marriage alliance with a Westerosi house because he has to remain free to marry Dany. Obviously, Conmington does not think that Rhaegar's son would be free to take a second wife -- so he thinks polygamy is not viable in the "present."

The other is Jorah. He tells Dany that she has two spare dragons that will need riders and suggests that she can take two spouses just like Aegon the Conqueror. Of course, he offers to be one of the husbands.

So let's go back to the assumption that Rhaegar and Lyanna got "married." The JonCon v. Jorah debate presages the debate the Westerosi lords will have over whether Jon is legitimate.

So at the very most -- if you assume that the KG were at the TOJ to protect Jon rather than to fulfill their vow to obey Rhaegar's orders -- all it shows is that those 3 KG would agree with Jorah and disagree with JonCon. It does not show that the "marriage" would be generally recognized as valid.

[Steve Moss II]

Tower of Joy was an old abandoned watchtower in the mountain pass leading to Dorne. How do you propose Varys planted his little birds there without anyone noticing, and how were they reporting to him?

But Rheagar, Lyanna, 3 Kings Guard, and assorted servants (unless we think they didn't bring a mid-wife, cook, squires, etc) don't pass through any territory unnoticed. Ned management to find them, after all, and he's hardly the wizard of espionage.

People need to eat. Where did they get their supplies from?

Lyanna needs a mid-wife. Who was she?

A marriage requires a septon and witnesses, so who were they (though the KG could have served as witnesses, I presume).

After the battle, Ned, Jon, Howland, travel to Starfall. People have to be there that can connect the dots. Or if they can't, they'd have information sufficient for a wizard of espionage (Varys) to connect the dots.

What's interesting is that when Ned was in the cells, Varys offered to let him write a letter. Did Ned take him up on it? What did he say? Was Varys looking for confirmation about the ToJ, or at least clues in any message Ned may have sent to Jon?

[Kuther2000]

I have always been of the opinion that it really won't matter if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. Because it all boils down to validity and they were never really allowed to test the theory of if the marriage would be deemed legal because all the participants died. So no matter if the marriage is valid or not, there will be people who accept it as such because they want Jon to be King and there will be people who say it isn't valid deeming Jon a bastard.

It could have very well been that Rhaegar and Lyanna come back married, but no one accepts its legality.

[Steve Moss II]

I can actually. Remember, it was pretty bad for King Aerys' safety for Rhaegar and Lyanna to be at the Tower of Joy let alone for three senior members of the Kingsguard to sit idly by while lesser knights botch the quelling of Robert's Rebellion. There's a strong argument that they should never have agreed to help Rhaegar or Rhaegar and Lyanna run away in the first place. They did it because they, like everybody else in Westeros, was in love Rhaegar Targaryen. This guy attracted everyone he met and inspired instant loyalty. You didn't have to be Jon Conington to fall in love with him.

If Rhaegar was bargaining with Aerys, perhaps there was no secret marriage but instead a proclamation that any child of Lyanna and Rheagar would be legitimate? I really want to know what's in the WF tombs.

[Dragonfish]

I can actually. Remember, it was pretty bad for King Aerys' safety for Rhaegar and Lyanna to be at the Tower of Joy let alone for three senior members of the Kingsguard to sit idly by while lesser knights botch the quelling of Robert's Rebellion. There's a strong argument that they should never have agreed to help Rhaegar or Rhaegar and Lyanna run away in the first place.

There never was any "agreeing" to begin with. The Kingsguard have to follow Rhaegar's orders, even if they don't like them.

Remember, Rhaegar had to be begged to lead the defense of the Trident. It's entirely within reason to think that when he was being lobbied, part of the deal he struck was for those three knights to stay defend and Lyanna to the death.

There's no mention of any "lobbying" of Rhaegar in the text. Jaime recalls that Aerys tried to find him, but nothing about begging or lobbying him.

If they made that promise to the crowned prince, going after Viserys would have been secondary.

How can their "first duty" ever be secondary? Isn't that a contradiction?

They also don't say that Ser Willem Darry is misguided in what he's doing. All they say, is that they don't flee. Which could be taken as implying that there's still a Targ on the mainland but could also mean that as a matter principle, they don't run away; they fight their enemies.

It's not just a matter of principle, it's matter of what they swore they'd do. And nothing that we know of in their vows requires them not to flee, except when they're guarding the king.

Also, you haven't directly addressed one of my questions: how can these knights invoke their honor as Kingsguard as their reason for staying, even as they're ignoring the plight of their supposed new king in favor of a separate vow they've only recently made?

[Pikachu101]

All these discussions on whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna were married but everyone's ignoring one key issue: not a single character would care or believe something so ludicrous

Cersei might as well go around telling people Aerys is her real father; there's just as much evidence to prove that than there is to prove R+L=J

[Dragonfish]

All these discussions on whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna were married but everyone's ignoring one key issue: not a single character would care or believe something so ludicrous

Really? Not a single character would care or believe it? Even those who might see it in their interest to support his claim?

Besides, the OP asked where Jon's claim could possibly come from, and we've been trying to answer that question. Whether or not enough people will believe it is ultimately beside the point.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

If they thought they were defending the King, why not go to Dragonstone with Lyanna and/or her baby and defend Dragonstone against Stannis? Why wait around an old tower in Dorne where they knew they were sitting ducks?

Dragonstone is a tough castle to siege and provides an easy escape route to Essos if need be. That's what they should have done if they were defending the King.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

All these discussions on whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna were married but everyone's ignoring one key issue: not a single character would care or believe something so ludicrous

Cersei might as well go around telling people Aerys is her real father; there's just as much evidence to prove that than there is to prove R+L=J

But Ned was persuaded of Myrcella, Tommen and Joffrey's bastardy just because they all had blond hair. We are aware of the concept of regressive genes but here in the real world, it'd be impossible for non-scientists to pre-determine whether every child with dark haired parents would also grow up to possess dark hair. Yet, this relatively simple concept was enough in Westeros to amount to conclusive proof that Robert was not their father.

I am not saying that hair colour will be involved, but using the above analogy, it could also be another equally simple concept which is sufficient to prove to Westeros that Jon is the rightful heir to the IT.

[Dragonfish]

If they thought they were defending the King, why not go to Dragonstone with Lyanna and/or her baby and defend Dragonstone against Stannis? Why wait around an old tower in Dorne where they knew they were sitting ducks?

Who's to say that wasn't their plan? Their location wasn't well-known, so they could have afforded to wait until Lyanna recovered (or not, as it turned out) before moving to a better location.

[Twinslayer]

Besides, the OP asked where Jon's claim could possibly come from, and we've been trying to answer that question. Whether or not enough people will believe it is ultimately beside the point.

I think the OP asked whether Jon is a bastard because Rhaegar was married to Elia, not Lyanna, which could mean that Jon has no claim to the IT. The answer (assuming R+L=J) has to be (1) yes, that is correct, because Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married, (2) no that is wrong, because Rhaegar and Lyanna entered into a marriage that would be widely accepted if people knew about it, or (3) maybe, because Rhaegar and Lyanna undertook some sort of ceremony the validity of which would be open to debate.

Of these, I believe that No. 2 is the least likely answer. I think the more interesting question is this: if there was a "marriage," would Jon think it was valid? His greatest fear has been finding out that he was the product of prostitution, which is a generally-accepted practice. How would he react if he found out that he was the product of polygamy and incest -- like Gilly?

[JonNonRegis]

First of all, at the time of the Trident but before the Sack, Aerys still technically had Kingsguard with him, and as long as at least one Kingsguard knight is with him, their oath is being fulfilled. It's only after Aerys' death that their decision to stay put becomes suspicious, as Viserys had no Kingsguard with him at that time.

I've read this argument any number of times and it always seems so absurd.

I mean, really. The Kingsguard are not robots who are programmed to believe that the King must definitely be safe as long as there is at least one KG with him.

They are human beings. They have brains. It's perfectly simple to see that in the middle of a civil war -- as has been stated, the greatest threat to Targaryen rule since Daemon Blackfyre -- one KG ain't gonna get it done.

He has to sleep. He has to eat. The eating leads to other requirements. Etc, etc, etc.

One KG, regardless of whatever technicality you want to believe applies, simply cannot always be there in person with Aerys, constantly defending him. The one KG is instead away from Aerys' presence, and in fact unconscious, many hours per day.

All this would have been obvious to Dayne, Hightower and Whent from the instant they were notified Rhaegar had left Aerys alone with Jaime, probably well before Rhaegar even died. If the claim is that they have some stupendous overriding oath to guard the king, then they failed to keep that oath.

It's so crazy for this still to be argued about when GRRM has been asked this question point blank in an interview, and has said, outright, that if Rhaegar told the KG at the ToJ to do a certain thing, they would have to do it -- no ifs, ands, or buts.