Jon's claim to the throne

[Dragonfish]

The readers don't believe R+L=J because of the little evidence that the character's are limited to. We know R+L=J is true because of Ned's PoV; something the characters don't have

Sure, but if you ask people what got them onto the theory in the first place, a lot of them will say that it didn't make sense to them that Ned would father a bastard. The same is probably true of at least some people in Westeros.

Totally different issues. Robb is a legendary king whilst Jon is a random bastard from the NWs who thinks he's Rhaegar Targaryen's son.

Uh, what? Robb was hardly legendary when these rumors started. And Jon is not some random bastard from the Night's Watch, he is a prominent and well-known bastard who rose to the position of Lord Commander at a very young age. There is also already tons of gossip surrounding his origins. It's a topic that people are interested in, so the revelation of his true parentage would surely ignite discussion and debate, with some people being pro and others con.

Jon doesn't have a claim to the IT he's got his father and grandfather to thank for that <_<

So your response to my argument is essentially to repeat your original claim? Are you even interested in a discussion?

[Pikachu101]

Sure, but if you ask people what got them onto the theory in the first place, a lot of them will say that it didn't make sense to them that Ned would father a bastard. The same is probably true of at least some people in Westeros.

Sure it was. From all the essays and forums I've seen on it, they always relate to Ned's PoV for the main evidence. His character is used to simply back up and tie loose ends.

Sorry to break it to you but Ned isn't perfect and once upon a time he was a dumb twenty year old. His son made the same mistakes and I'm sure everyone thought he was just as honourable as Ned.

Uh, what? Robb was hardly legendary when these rumors started. And Jon is not some random bastard from the Night's Watch, he is a prominent and well-known bastard who rose to the position of Lord Commander at a very young age. There is also already tons of gossip surrounding his origins. It's a topic that people are interested in, so the revelation of his true parentage would surely ignite discussion and debate, with some people being pro and others con.

The rumours came about in ACoK, when he had the reputation of never losing a battle. So yes, he was legendary

Too everyone else Jon is still some bastard from the NWs; it's not legendary and prestigious anymore

Really? :o

Well I must be reading the wrong books because:

A) Jon's only been mentioned twice by characters outside the Wall

B ) Apart from the petty gossip when he was a baby no one actually looked twice at his parents

C) no one's been thinking "how could Ned father a bastard? There must be more to it"

D) like I've said before there's just as much evidence for Tyrion to say Aerys is his father

So your response to my argument is essentially to repeat your original claim? Are you even interested in a discussion?

Yes, as long as people understand that the Targaryens don't have a claim to the IT. Dany and Aegon have to win it back through force

[Dragonfish]

Sure it was. From all the essays and forums I've seen on it, they always relate to Ned's PoV for the main evidence. His character is used to simply back up and tie loose ends.

I'm not sure what exactly you're responding to here. I agreed that most of the evidence comes from Ned's POV, but that many people first start to suspect there's a lot more to Jon's origins based on a certain understanding of Ned's character. Nothing you've said here contradicts any of that.

The rumours came about in ACoK, when he had the reputation of never losing a battle. So yes, he was legendary

Rumors about Robb and his wolf started early in ACOK, when he had won maybe two battles.

It doesn't matter that much anyway. There are plenty of other rumors about other characters that are ridiculous in the extreme, but people believe them anyway. George has already shown that people can be quick to believe anything they hear if it's a good story, and Jon being the secret heir to the great Prince Rhaegar who was harbored by the best friend of Rhaegar's killer makes for a pretty good story.

Too everyone else Jon is still some bastard from the NWs; it's not legendary and prestigious anymore

Undoubtedly this would be true for some, but for everyone? You're being awfully presumptuous here.

Well I must be reading the wrong books because:

A) Jon's only been mentioned twice by characters outside the Wall

Off the top of my head, he's been mentioned by Cersei in Game, Edric in Storm, Cersei and the Small Council again in Feast, and Lord Godric in Dance. And three out of four of these instances mention speculation about his origins. There could very well be some other mentions I'm forgetting. He's certainly not on people's minds as much as other characters, but he's hardly an unknown.

B ) Apart from the petty gossip when he was a baby no one actually looked twice at his parents

Petty gossip which spans from the North down to Dorne. And you've no evidence the gossiping never continued.

Yes, as long as people understand that the Targaryens don't have a claim to the IT. Dany and Aegon have to win it back through force

So you're interested in a discussion, as long as people agree with you? Got it.

[Burdette]

Off the top of my head, he's been mentioned by Cersei in Game, Edric in Storm, Cersei and the Small Council again in Feast, and Lord Godric in Dance. And three out of four of these instances mention speculation about his origins. There could very well be some other mentions I'm forgetting. He's certainly not on people's minds as much as other characters, but he's hardly an unknown.

I believe Mya Stone and Sansa brought him up in aFfC, too.

[Burdette]

Yes, as long as people understand that the Targaryens don't have a claim to the IT. Dany and Aegon have to win it back through force

I believe the opposite. I think everybody has a claim, as long as they have the power to seize and hold it.

[Pikachu101]

I believe the opposite. I think everybody has a claim, as long as they have the power to seize and hold it.

I like this one :)

[Pikachu101]

I'm not sure what exactly you're responding to here. I agreed that most of the evidence comes from Ned's POV, but that many people first start to suspect there's a lot more to Jon's origins based on a certain understanding of Ned's character. Nothing you've said here contradicts any of that.

I'm telling you that not once have characters thought it odd that Bed had a bastard. So please explain to me why they'd put two and two together if Jon claims to be Rhaegar's son?

Jon being the secret heir to the great Prince Rhaegar who was harbored by the best friend of Rhaegar's killer makes for a pretty good story.

Pretty good story until a silver haired prince with an army wants to execute him for treason.

His story isn't going to save him

Undoubtedly this would be true for some, but for everyone? You're being awfully presumptuous here.

No I'm not actually, I'm taking facts. You're under the impression that Jon being LC gives him a status to those in the South and I'm telling you the South couldn't give a damn about the Wall. As far as they're concerned it's a place to put criminals.

Off the top of my head, he's been mentioned by Cersei in Game, Edric in Storm, Cersei and the Small Council again in Feast, and Lord Godric in Dance. And three out of four of these instances mention speculation about his origins.

Edric? Wow you've convinced me that everyone thinks about Jon :o He thought Jon's mother was his wetnurse Wylla, I highly doubt that's speculation on who his parents are

Cersei in Game just saw a bastard, nothing special and she couldn't care less. Cersei in Feast wanted to know why Cat didn't kill him and wanted him dead in case the North use him as their king.

She doesn't question his parents, she questions Cat's decision on letting him live and sees him as threat for being Ned Stark's son.

There could very well be some other mentions I'm forgetting. He's certainly not on people's minds as much as other characters, but he's hardly an unknown.

This is what Jon is known for:

A) being Ned Stark's bastard

B ) being LC of the Wall; something Southerners care little about

C) if you believe the GNC, Robb's heir via his will.

Not a single one of these cases question, mention or even care about who his parents are.

Petty gossip which spans from the North down to Dorne. And you've no evidence the gossiping never continued.

Really?

Except for Cat's worries when she first came to Winterfell I don't remember gossip about Jon's mother. And even then they accepted Ned was the father they were just whispering about violet eyed Ashara.

Dorne? When did Dorne care about Ned Stark's bastard.

So you're interested in a discussion, as long as people agree with you? Got it.

No, actually Burdette changed my opinion :)

[Dragonfish]

I'm telling you that not once have characters thought it odd that Bed had a bastard. So please explain to me why they'd put two and two together if Jon claims to be Rhaegar's son?

Because then surely some people would find that it fits better with Ned's character.

Pretty good story until a silver haired prince with an army wants to execute him for treason.

His story isn't going to save him

And what does this have to do with whether or not some people will believe his story? That's the current argument here.

No I'm not actually, I'm taking facts. You're under the impression that Jon being LC gives him a status to those in the South

I said it hardly makes him an unknown, they way you've been describing him.

and I'm telling you the South couldn't give a damn about the Wall. As far as they're concerned it's a place to put criminals.

The Wall is pretty important to northerners, though, and some of their houses still hold it in esteem.

Edric? Wow you've convinced me that everyone thinks about Jon :o He thought Jon's mother was his wetnurse Wylla, I highly doubt that's speculation on who his parents are

He thinks that because he heard it from someone in his family. You don't think that a bit of speculation preceded that?

Cersei in Game just saw a bastard, nothing special and she couldn't care less. Cersei in Feast wanted to know why Cat didn't kill him and wanted him dead in case the North use him as their king.

She doesn't question his parents, she questions Cat's decision on letting him live and sees him as threat for being Ned Stark's son.

Who cares if she didn't see him as a threat in Game? What matters is his current status, and you've just admitted that he's climbed high enough to catch the notice of people in King's Landing.

And Cersei does bring up speculation about Jon's parentage in her conversation with Ned. She even alludes specifically to Ashara, which proves that such gossip happened more than just in the North when Jon was born.

This is what Jon is known for:

A) being Ned Stark's bastard

B ) being LC of the Wall; something Southerners care little about

C) if you believe the GNC, Robb's heir via his will.

Not a single one of these cases question, mention or even care about who his parents are.

Who the hell cares? What matters is that he's known well enough to catch people's interest. He may not be currently on their radar, but if/when he proclaims himself Rhaegar's son (something I don't necessarily think he'll do, mind you), no one's going to wonder who the hell he is.

Dorne? When did Dorne care about Ned Stark's bastard.

Edric? Remember him?

[Ariane Martell]

Sure it was. From all the essays and forums I've seen on it, they always relate to Ned's PoV for the main evidence. His character is used to simply back up and tie loose ends.

Sorry to break it to you but Ned isn't perfect and once upon a time he was a dumb twenty year old. His son made the same mistakes and I'm sure everyone thought he was just as honourable as Ned.

EXACTLY. Thank you for pointing it out. And just the fact that Ned raised his bastard equally as his legit children is proof enough to why people still considered him honorable.

And there's a quote by Cersei in the first book "What about Ashara, Ned? She died why was that? You're no better than me or Jamie". She's obviously hinting Ashara and Ned had an affair, to be based on this there must be more than a dance two years before she died. So Ashara and Ned had a relationship or it seemed to be, giving the other characters base the "oh so perfect Ned" could have a bastard, he could have made a mistake.

In his chapters he thinks to himself he did a lot of mistakes, I find it funny that the readers don't believe him.

[Ariane Martell]

Ok there's a lot of talk about his legitimacy. I haven't read the whole tread, I'm sorry if that was already been discussed. But who would support him, even if he's legit?

The Northerner will choose Lyanna's son over Ned's son? What if Sansa heads to the North? another Ned daughter... So to be king of the North he'd have to wait for two of his siblings to die.

As for his Targaryen part, Dany has a dragon, and Aegon has the golden company. Again or he wed Dany(too cliché for GRRM) or he waits until 2 of his siblings die.

He can count with the wildling folks to be his army, but how well do they fight with armors and long swords like the southerns? And most of them is dead.

He can maybe count on Holland Reed but his men are small and not too good to fight.

So my main question is HOW is he gonna take the throne even if R+L=J is true?

[jenerationx]

Ok there's a lot of talk about his legitimacy. I haven't read the whole tread, I'm sorry if that was already been discussed. But who would support him, even if he's legit?

The Northerner will choose Lyanna's son over Ned's son? What if Sansa heads to the North? another Ned daughter... So to be king of the North he'd have to wait for two of his siblings to die.

As for his Targaryen part, Dany has a dragon, and Aegon has the golden company. Again or he wed Dany(too clich&eacute; for GRRM) or he waits until 2 of his siblings die.

He can count with the wildling folks to be his army, but how well do they fight with armors and long swords like the southerns? And most of them is dead.

He can maybe count on Holland Reed but his men are small and not too good to fight.

So my main question is HOW is he gonna take the throne even if R+L=J is true?

IF he's legit, Jon actually has more connections than anyone, imho. I started a thread not too long ago about that very thing:

Why would the North need to choose between Jon or Ned's son (let's say, Rickon)? Jon, if legit, has a claim to the Iron Throne. Rickon's claim would be to the North, as Lord of Winterfell. Those things are not contradictory. If R+L=J is true, that still would not give him a claim as King in the North, that much is true. But I think some things have been mixed up over the course of the discussion. The fact that Robb's will legitimizes Jon and makes him his heir (per the World of Ice and Fire app, approved by GRRM) is what would give Jon a claim to the King in the North title, but like most people, I don't think he would choose to remain king (or would give up his claim) once he finds out his brothers are alive.

However, if R+L=J is true and he's legitimate, that DOES give him a claim to the Iron Throne, and per the thread I linked, there are plenty who would support him, imho.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Ok there's a lot of talk about his legitimacy. I haven't read the whole tread, I'm sorry if that was already been discussed. But who would support him, even if he's legit?

The Northerner will choose Lyanna's son over Ned's son? What if Sansa heads to the North? another Ned daughter... So to be king of the North he'd have to wait for two of his siblings to die.

As for his Targaryen part, Dany has a dragon, and Aegon has the golden company. Again or he wed Dany(too cliché for GRRM) or he waits until 2 of his siblings die.

He can count with the wildling folks to be his army, but how well do they fight with armors and long swords like the southerns? And most of them is dead.

He can maybe count on Holland Reed but his men are small and not too good to fight.

So my main question is HOW is he gonna take the throne even if R+L=J is true?

By conquest?

Supposing Dany and Aegon are dead by the end, and he has somehow miraculously managed to defeat the Others, he could claim it by conquest, could he not?

IF R+L=J IS true, this would just be an added bonus and people could choose for themselves whether or not to believe it - no one would contest his claim if he conquered it by conquest, would they (unless Stannis, Danny and Aegon are still alive)?

Supposing that the other three main contenders are dead by the end, I imagine he could even be a refreshing change to Westerosis (after all, with all the civil wars and squabbling by all the main candidates, the place is a right mess right now) - a dignified humble soldier with no agendas and no preoccupation with his "rights" over the Iron Throne, who has just defeated large, white undead creatures?

[Ygrain]

And just the fact that Ned raised his bastard equally as his legit children is proof enough to why people still considered him honorable.

Er, no. Honourable in Westeros means keeping one's word and treating others justly, it has nothing to do with treating his bastard equally to his trueborn children (that might actually be considered a drawback, something that is simply not done)

And there's a quote by Cersei in the first book "What about Ashara, Ned? She died why was that? You're no better than me or Jamie". She's obviously hinting Ashara and Ned had an affair, to be based on this there must be more than a dance two years before she died. So Ashara and Ned had a relationship or it seemed to be, giving the other characters base the "oh so perfect Ned" could have a bastard, he could have made a mistake.

There was - someone dishonoured Ashara and she had a baby. She also committed suicide after Ned's visit to Starfall, and, hey! Lord Stark has a bastard and no-one knows who his mother was! Based on these pieces of information, a lot of people would think that Ashara = Jon's mother is the right way to connect these dots.

In his chapters he thinks to himself he did a lot of mistakes, I find it funny that the readers don't believe him.

And what makes you think that people don't believing? Not realizing that Lyanna's misgivings about Robert were vital was certainly a big mistake on Ned's part, the fight at ToJ with so many dead friends might be another, and Ashara's suicide would perhaps fit, as well. It just doesn't mean that an affair with Ashara was one of those mistakes he rues.

Ok there's a lot of talk about his legitimacy. I haven't read the whole tread, I'm sorry if that was already been discussed. But who would support him, even if he's legit?

The Northerner will choose Lyanna's son over Ned's son? What if Sansa heads to the North? another Ned daughter... So to be king of the North he'd have to wait for two of his siblings to die.

As for his Targaryen part, Dany has a dragon, and Aegon has the golden company. Again or he wed Dany(too cliché for GRRM) or he waits until 2 of his siblings die.

He can count with the wildling folks to be his army, but how well do they fight with armors and long swords like the southerns? And most of them is dead.

He can maybe count on Holland Reed but his men are small and not too good to fight.

So my main question is HOW is he gonna take the throne even if R+L=J is true?

I'd just like to point out as a sidenote: Jon being legit is a separate issue from being able to prove it or use to claim the throne.

[aceluby]

His claim is only as good as the people following him...

Jon would have the support of the North and Riverlands for sure

Jon has the support of the wildlings

Jon could gain the support of Stannis w/ enough evidence which would give him the stormlands and dragonstone

Aegon would have the support of Dorne

Lannister's are done, the children will die and the heiress will lose her lands before losing her life

Highgarden will want the IT for themselves after the Lannister's are gone

W/out Dany and her dragons Jon has the best chance out of everyone to have a successful claim IF Stannis supports him. W/out Stannis' support it's a bit more up in the air, but he still might have the best claim...

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Why would the North need to choose between Jon or Ned's son (let's say, Rickon)? Jon, if legit, has a claim to the Iron Throne. Rickon's claim would be to the North, as Lord of Winterfell. Those things are not contradictory. If R+L=J is true, that still would not give him a claim as King in the North, that much is true. But I think some things have been mixed up over the course of the discussion.

Yes I agree - that is how I've always interpreted it as well. R+L=J possibly equals cttIT not KitN.

Also, I raised a point earlier which wasn't really addressed.

If we're going to go with the traditional old fashioned rules of hereditary rule here rather than Jon claiming the IT through conquest, what evidence is sufficient in Westeros to persuade people of Jon's claim?

In Westeros, the fact that Robert Baratheon's children all had blond hair was sufficient to prove to Ned Stark that they were not fathered by Robert. This concept of genetics would never work in the real world - unless you are a scientist, it would be impossible to pre-determine which children of dark haired parents would grow up with dark hair and which wouldn't.

Now, as Westerosi genetics differ from our own scientific viewpoints, it could be that they apply different threshholds of whatever they constitute evidence to other concepts as well.

Hence, a wedding cloak, a valuable Targeryan heirloom or the Crown of Winter Kings found in the Winterfell crypts, or an ability to mount dragons for example, may be all that is required for Jon to prove to Westerosis that he is who he says he is - in accordance with Westerosi standards.

[Ariane Martell]

By conquest?

Supposing Dany and Aegon are dead by the end, and he has somehow miraculously managed to defeat the Others, he could claim it by conquest, could he not?

Oh but that's something too big to suppose isn't? I know we're supposing alot but Dany has a dragon, the Others are killed by dragon glass, probably by dragon fire. So she has more chances to be alive. But let's say they die, both of them. Who of the Targaryen supporters would remain?Very little probably, so again Jon is left with little to conquest

IF R+L=J IS true, this would just be an added bonus and people could choose for themselves whether or not to believe it - no one would contest his claim if he conquered it by conquest, would they (unless Stannis, Danny and Aegon are still alive)?

What about the Lannisters? See the Northerners want a free kingdom, so if they bring back Rickon they'll wanna make the kid "King of the North", not only Lord of Winterfell because that'll mean they'll still have to respond to the Lannisters and they don't wanna that. There are the Martells and the Golden Company but if Dany and Aegon are dead, there's no reason for the golden dragon(if they're still alive) to support Jon. And Dorne is the least populated part of Westeros and they're used with hot weather I seriously think very few would remain

Supposing that the other three main contenders are dead by the end, I imagine he could even be a refreshing change to Westerosis (after all, with all the civil wars and squabbling by all the main candidates, the place is a right mess right now) - a dignified humble soldier with no agendas and no preoccupation with his "rights" over the Iron Throne, who has just defeated large, white undead creatures?

no agendas? no preoccupation? What about winter? Are we supposing winter will be short?I doubt it. Even if he kills the all the white walkers, and winter is finished, he'll have to plant almost everything again, deal with hunger in the meanwhile, houses destroyed. It'll be a mess.

And again it's more likely Dany to be alive, why Jon?

[Ariane Martell]

Er, no. Honourable in Westeros means keeping one's word and treating others justly, it has nothing to do with treating his bastard equally to his trueborn children (that might actually be considered a drawback, something that is simply not done)

Have you seem how bad is a life of a bastard? Creating one among your trueborn is preventing him of hunger, or growing up a whorehouse, it's giving him a chance in life. For me it's honorable, unfortunately we don't have westerosi dictionary to really proof who is right.

There was - someone dishonoured Ashara and she had a baby. She also committed suicide after Ned's visit to Starfall, and, hey! Lord Stark has a bastard and no-one knows who his mother was! Based on these pieces of information, a lot of people would think that Ashara = Jon's mother is the right way to connect these dots.

Yes SOMEONE, but why would she think it was Ned?Because of the dance? I doubt it. They must have had some contact in the middle time, at least 9 months before she died. But my point here is not about Jon being Ashara's baby but that maybe Ned did have a romance or something likely(maybe covering for somebody) that indicated that he had an unofficial romance -and that is not honorable-

And what makes you think that people don't believing?

the many previous people telling that having a bastard is out of character for Ned

[jenerationx]

If we're going to go with the traditional old fashioned rules of hereditary rule here rather than Jon claiming the IT through conquest, what evidence is sufficient in Westeros to persuade people of Jon's claim?

I don't have a good answer for this, because I don't think there is much so far. I've just always assumed (or maybe hoped is the better word) that GRRM would work it out, using details that we're not privy to at the moment (or would provide more clarification on what we do already have). Otherwise, as far as I know, the only evidence there would be to convince anyone of anything would be Howland Reed telling everyone everything he knows about the ToJ -- and even then, not everyone would necessarily believe him. But it would be enough for some, I think, the people who would most want Jon to sit the IT than another ruler (say, Northerners). I mean, this is how all claims get started -- there's a claim to the rights of the throne, people pick sides, a war is fought, the victor gets it. However, I just don't see Jon really wanting the IT. If he goes after it, it'll be because people have begged him to do it for the good of the realm or something. He won't want it for himself.

The other way, the way I've always kind of imagined it happening -- would be the combination of Howland revealing facts no one else knew, on top of Jon being able to get a dragon to respond to him, the way Dany can. That might actually sway Dany into helping him. Depending on the scenario, I actually see her as his ally, if she finds out that he's the son of her beloved brother Rhaegar. That said, maybe she's gotten to like the taste of being a queen too much and would oppose him no matter what, lol.

I've never liked the secret birth certificate (in whatever form it'd take) in Winterfell's crypts theory. Just seems too convenient.

In Westeros, the fact that Robert Baratheon's children all had blond hair was sufficient to prove to Ned Stark that they were not fathered by Robert. This concept of genetics would never work in the real world - unless you are a sccientist, it would be impossible to pre-determine which children of dark haired parents would grow up with dark hair and which wouldn't.

I've actually always been shocked that it works even in Westeros. Woe if there was some blonde person somewhere in the Baratheon line, which would enable future generations to produce a blonde child with another blonde -- and that kid gets marked as a bastard (and probably the mother executed or something). It was always a little bizarre to me that it was like King's Landing: CSI to "prove" Cersei's kids' bastardy. It was really only made OK by the fact that she confesses to Ned that he's right, and even goes so far as to tell him that she made sure she was never impregnated by Robert. Otherwise we'd all be like, but maybe poor Tommen really is Robert's...?

[Rickeen Baratheon]

I don't think he has a claim to the throne, because I believe he is more than likely Ned's. His lack of Targ features and even his lack of wolf blood... traits he shares with Ned, he even looks just like him. People believe Ned wouldn't father a bastard, but I disagree.

[Ygrain]

Have you seem how bad is a life of a bastard? Creating one among your trueborn is preventing him of hunger, or growing up a whorehouse, it's giving him a chance in life. For me it's honorable, unfortunately we don't have westerosi dictionary to really proof who is right.

Well, we don't need any dictionary, the text itself is enough. Catelyn thinks that she would absolutely expect Ned to take care of his bastard but NOT in their own home. We actually see a couple of nobles' bastards (Edric Storm and the Hornwood bastard) fostered with vassals and well cared for. On the other hand, bringing Jon to live with Ned's lady wife on the same level as her trueborn children is a huge offence to her (and Cersei can't understand how Catelyn put up with that, though Cersei not understanding something is not exactly a proof of anything)

Yes SOMEONE, but why would she think it was Ned?Because of the dance? I doubt it. They must have had some contact in the middle time, at least 9 months before she died. But my point here is not about Jon being Ashara's baby but that maybe Ned did have a romance or something likely(maybe covering for somebody) that indicated that he had an unofficial romance -and that is not honorable-

Because of the combination of the factors I listed above.

the many previous people telling that having a bastard is out of character for Ned

Because making mistakes does not automatically make an action dishonourable.