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MidnightAurora

Why wasn't Catelyn and Tullys at the great Tourney of Harrenhal?

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I think people are forgetting some important details:

It wasn't just that Cat was betrothed to Brandon. Lysa was supposed to marry Jamie until Aerys's nasty KG move. Tullys attending the tournament with Aerys present would have meant pissing off Tywin, Hoster's intended ally (who also did not attend) and meekly accepting Aerys's sabotaging move without protest.

This issue might actually be a key in the end to something that has been puzzling me: Why Barristan said Aerys's attemdance at the tourney ruined everything.

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I really think it's Jaime being inducted into the KG.

I think people are forgetting some important details:

It wasn't just that Cat was betrothed to Brandon. Lysa was supposed to marry Jamie until Aerys's nasty KG move. Tullys attending the tournament with Aerys present would have meant pissing off Tywin, Hoster's intended ally (who also did not attend) and meekly accepting Aerys's sabotaging move without protest.

This issue might actually be a key in the end to something that has been puzzling me: Why Barristan said Aerys's attemdance at the tourney ruined everything.

Well, but Jaime was made a KG at that tourney not before...

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But known by whom? Do we know that everybody knew?

even if everyone did not, the family of Jamie's betrothed would definitely have been told by Tywin himself if noone else.

Jamie in the KG is precisely why Tywin did not attend. He definitely knew.

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even if everyone did not, the family of Jamie's betrothed would definitely have been told by Tywin himself if noone else.

Jamie in the KG is precisely why Tywin did not attend. He definitely knew.

Okay, you got a point there. That's an explanation I'm satisfied with.

So there were no Tullys at Harrenhal because Aerys II. was a dickhead.

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The wiki only gives the most outer years (absolute minimum and absolute maximum).

Okay, I can understand that. I remembered Jon's decision to take only boys as old as twelve into the Watch, though his thoughts where that boys of that age would serve as squires or pages when I thought younger boys would serve as pages and become squires later, that's what Loras did at Storm's End for Renly. I think this should go into the wiki page on knights and should be referenced if the estimation of a character's age is based on it. Also, I was seriously wondering if there wasn't another reason for the wiki to state 277 as latest date.

Sooooo... we're not making any progress here >.< :frown5:

I think we're doing fine. Three good sugestions have been put forward.

  1. Minisa died in childbirth and the boy survived her for a few month. Catelyn remembers that this was a huge blow for Hoster. But Catelyn doesn't remember missing the greatest tournament of the time - not even when she thinks about how she used to play Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies with Littlefinger, given how important the tourney for Ned was for Sansa, that seems odd. I think this is a deliberate omission by Martin.

I think Lysa's pregnancy became a problem month after the tournament, she slept with Petyr around the time when he learned of Cat's betrothal to Brandon, or is it posssible that the duel happened before the tournament?

The implications of Jaime's proposed marriage to Lysa -

Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crakehall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King's Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower.

- I think is the most interesting point, but discussing itinvolves spoilers from Feast, Dance and TWoIaF.

Cersei remembering Tywin's promise that she would marry Rhaegar, Lady Dustin mentioning Rickard Stark's southron ambitions, Barristan Selmy mentioning Varys reporting of a plot by Rhaegar to depose Aerys and from TWoIaF, which I haven't read but seen it mentioned, that there was a mysterious backer of the Harrenhal Tournament, who I think might have been Tywin.

So I think you'll better take this to the general forum and be patient, as we can only speculate ...

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Okay, I can understand that. I remembered Jon's decision to take only boys as old as twelve into the Watch, though his thoughts where that boys of that age would serve as squires or pages when I thought younger boys would serve as pages and become squires later, that's what Loras did at Storm's End for Renly. I think this should go into the wiki page on knights and should be referenced if the estimation of a character's age is based on it. Also, I was seriously wondering if there wasn't another reason for the wiki to state 277 as latest date.

Usually, squires will be slightly older than five. The thing here is that Brandon could have accepted Edmure as his squire for the duel, to score points with Hoster.

As we don't know, the wiki uses the age of the youngest known squire, to ensure no mistakes are made.

You can follow the source to the calculations, btw ;)

I think Lysa's pregnancy became a problem month after the tournament, she slept with Petyr around the time when he learned of Cat's betrothal to Brandon, or is it posssible that the duel happened before the tournament?

Lysa became pregnant by LF after the duel to Brandon. Definitely after the tourney ;)

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I think we're doing fine. Three good sugestions have been put forward.

  1. Minisa died in childbirth and the boy survived her for a few month. Catelyn remembers that this was a huge blow for Hoster. But Catelyn doesn't remember missing the greatest tournament of the time - not even when she thinks about how she used to play Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies with Littlefinger, given how important the tourney for Ned was for Sansa, that seems odd. I think this is a deliberate omission by Martin.

I think Lysa's pregnancy became a problem month after the tournament, she slept with Petyr around the time when he learned of Cat's betrothal to Brandon, or is it posssible that the duel happened before the tournament?

The implications of Jaime's proposed marriage to Lysa -

- I think is the most interesting point, but discussing itinvolves spoilers from Feast, Dance and TWoIaF.

Cersei remembering Tywin's promise that she would marry Rhaegar, Lady Dustin mentioning Rickard Stark's southron ambitions, Barristan Selmy mentioning Varys reporting of a plot by Rhaegar to depose Aerys and from TWoIaF, which I haven't read but seen it mentioned, that there was a mysterious backer of the Harrenhal Tournament, who I think might have been Tywin.

So I think you'll better take this to the general forum and be patient, as we can only speculate ...

I just wanted to provoke some further discussion ;)

Patience is not one of my virtues, I want GRRM to hurry up with writing. But I know there's nothing I can do.

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You can follow the source to the calculations, btw ;)

Lysa became pregnant by LF after the duel to Brandon. Definitely after the tourney ;)

Oh, good. I wonder why I didn't click on the reference (probably my old habit to scroll down to see what chapters are referenced so I could read the context). I very much appreciate the work you put into the timelines and calculations. :bowdown:

Btw. do you have a calculation on the timeline of that period. Spoiler for Feast

I think LF slept with Lysa twice, once when he got drunk after learning that Cat was to marry Brandon and once after the duel when he was wounded and drugged. I'm interested in how long LF stayed at Riverrun to recover before he was well enough to be sent back to the Vale.

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Oh, good. I wonder why I didn't click on the reference (probably my old habit to scroll down to see what chapters are referenced so I could read the context). I very much appreciate the work you put into the timelines and calculations. :bowdown:

Btw. do you have a calculation on the timeline of that period. Spoiler for Feast

I think LF slept with Lysa twice, once when he got drunk after learning that Cat was to marry Brandon and once after the duel when he was wounded and drugged. I'm interested in how long LF stayed at Riverrun to recover before he was well enough to be sent back to the Vale.

Thanks! :)

A more detailed timeline is in the works, but , Lysa and LF slept togeher twice. The first time was the night Lords Bracken and Blackwood came arguing to Hoster, and Catelyn danced with LF, but laughed at him when he tried to kiss her. LF had just then learned of the engagement. He got drunk due to he rejection, Brynden brought him to his bed, and Lysa snuck in after him. Because he was drunk, LF was convinced it was Catelyn.

The second time was after the duel, when Lysa took care of him. This time, he was aware it was Lysa, which is why he thinks he slept with both girls. LF remained at Riverrun after the duel for a fortnight, until he was strong enough to be moved.

The direct cause of the duel was LF learning about the date of Cats wedding.

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Btw. do you have a calculation on the timeline of that period. Spoiler for Feast

I think LF slept with Lysa twice, once when he got drunk after learning that Cat was to marry Brandon and once after the duel when he was wounded and drugged. I'm interested in how long LF stayed at Riverrun to recover before he was well enough to be sent back to the Vale.

AGOT 40 CATELYN

A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon’s squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he’d been born.

I doubt he was strong enough to have sex with a deep wound on the chest after only two weeks.

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Thanks! :)

A more detailed timeline is in the works, but , Lysa and LF slept togeher twice. The first time was the night Lords Bracken and Blackwood came arguing to Hoster, and Catelyn danced with LF, but laughed at him when he tried to kiss her. LF had just then learned of the engagement. He got drunk due to he rejection, Brynden brought him to his bed, and Lysa snuck in after him. Because he was drunk, LF was convinced it was Catelyn.

The second time was after the duel, when Lysa took care of him. This time, he was aware it was Lysa, which is why he thinks he slept with both girls. LF remained at Riverrun after the duel for a fortnight, until he was strong enough to be moved.

The direct cause of the duel was LF learning about the date of Cats wedding.

That spoiler is from TWoIaF, right, is there a discussion about that in the TWoIaF forum?

Why does Yandel write about Littlefinger's relationship to Lysa?

ETA: Oh, thanks AliceRose, it was in Game I searched from Clash onwards. :dunce:

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AGOT 40 CATELYN

A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon’s squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he’d been born.

I doubt he was strong enough to have sex with a deep wound on the chest after only two weeks.

And yet, that's how GRRM tells it. :)

That spoiler is from TWoIaF, right, is there a discussion about that in the TWoIaF forum?

Why does Yandel write about Littlefinger's relationship to Lysa?

Yandel writes nothing about it. Yandel only knows public stuff, and what happened between LF and Lysa is bot public knowledge. It's all from the books and app ;)

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I confused the reference to the app (A World of Ice and Fire) with TWoIaF, I think I better take a nap.


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And yet, that's how GRRM tells it. :)

Hmm, No

He tells nothing about consensual and conscious sex between Lysa and Petyr at Riverrun, there are only guesses.

I guess Petyr simply lies about both girls, but he knows it happened only once with Lysa.

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Hmm, No

He tells nothing about consensual and conscious sex between Lysa and Petyr at Riverrun, there are only guesses.

I guess Petyr simply lies about both girls, but he knows it happened only once with Lysa.

Hmm. Yes.

I admit that the information is very much scattered through the entire series. Luckily, we have a nice summary. From the official app, Lysa Tully entry:

She grows to love her father's ward, Petyr Baelish , and on a night when Petyr had becomes drunk after learning that Brandon Stark is betrothed to Lysa's sister Catelyn , Lysa gives Petyr her maidenhead. Later, when Petyr is gravely injured in his duel with Brandon Stark, Lysa tends to his hurts and again sleeps with him. This time, she conceives a child. She reveals the pregnancy to her father in the belief that he will have to let her marry the banished Petyr, but instead Lord Tully forces her to drink moon tea to purge herself of the pregnancy. Lysa nearly dies from this.

We hear Lysa telling us about her first time with Petyr, and the fact that he called her "Cat". We learn that she was pregnant, and from Hoster we learn how that ended. Before the app's big update, it was speculated that Hoster had send LF away because of Lysa's pregnancy. The update on the app revealed that LF was send away first, and then Lysa revealed her pregnancy.

As the app contains stuff from the books and GRRMs notes, and is overseen by Ran and Linda, I have faith ;)

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