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Is the queen of thorns sexist?


E-Ro

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Basically what some people are doing is comparing a few somewhat misogynistic statements made by characters who aren't really known that well or aren't well known for being misogynists.

Compared to a lot of the really horrible misogynistic things that happen what Olenna said was trivial, but people are still arguing that it wasn't sexist.

@lala

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Look, it is fucking disrespectful to tell men to "stop whining" about sexism against them-one symptom of a misogynistic society is the ridiculous amount of pressure put on men to e manly. This is not an empty claim-sure it's nowhere near Randyll Tarly levels of sexism, nor is it as bad as what Westerosi women face but it is present and remarking upon it doesn't mean E-ro is whining or being petty.

If a topic doesn't interest you or doesn't seem worthy of discussion, walk away-don't come in and tell people who are interested in said topic that they are wasting their time, mmmk?

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" Can Olenna do to men what, say, a Tarly or Tywin can do to women?"

If he is low born than yes she can absolutely abuse a man the same way Tarly and Tywin do to women.

Or if you are talking about other high borns, very rarely does even Tywin punish or kill them.

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Not sexist towards women, but sexist towards men. These quotes really make me wonder about this.

That seems extremely extremely sexist and highly offensive to me. Anyway, what are everyone elses thoughts on this?

Yes, and she cleaves so passionately to her deep seated beliefs that men are inferior, stupid and brutish creatures, incapable of higher intellectual capacity that she uses her considerable authority to make sure that the men in her sphere of social domination are excluded from power and deprived of agency in how their lives are to be conducted.

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Basically what some people are doing is comparing a few somewhat misogynistic statements made by characters who aren't really known that well or aren't well known for being misogynists.

Compared to a lot of the really horrible misogynistic things that happen what Olenna said was trivial, but people are still arguing that it wasn't sexist.

In response, I have to plead guilty. As you can see in my posts upthread I did make the argument that Olenna isn't a sexist. However, in my defense, I did begin by admitting that she represents sexist attitudes. The reason I make this distinction is mostly because we do not know enough about Lady Olenna to know if she is "just saying" or if she actually fundamentally believes that "all men are fools." I can certainly write a POV for her that would make that the case and it would be a sight to behold ;) (I warn all the penor endowed participants to this thread - it shall make Dany's fire and blood seem tame by comparison :smug: )

I think that the initial gut reaction of "E-Ro wtf are you on??" is mostly triggered by, as you awesomely admitted, the enormous difference in scale if we compare Olenna's travesties against, say, Ramsey or Tyrion or Tywin or RandomDothraki#1292 - which is partly our own bias (I admit!) and partly an issue of frame of reference. As the discussion progressed, I'm sure you've noticed that I have shifted my position as well as some of the other early posters because we had time to adjust our frame of reference and more critically examine our own positions.

Either way~ great thread, props to OP!

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This is still happening??

Iv'e heard about a dozen or so old women call all men stupid,It generally comes from experience dealing with one man in their lives,They become disgruntled with him and take it out on the world,Is is sexist yes,Is it all that bad no.

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Yes, and she cleaves so passionately to her deep seated beliefs that men are inferior, stupid and brutish creatures, incapable of higher intellectual capacity that she uses her considerable authority to make sure that the men in her sphere of social domination are excluded from power and deprived of agency in how their lives are to be conducted.

What was the point of this post?

Yeah, we get it. Westeros is extremely sexist and the laws and mindset are very, very skewed in favor of men.

But we aren't allowed to point out a time a woman was sexist without having shoved down our throats that women have it 100000x worse in Westeros? Yes, everyone understands its nothing compared to the misogyny shown in the series.

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What was the point of this post?

Yeah, we get it. Westeros is extremely sexist and the laws and mindset are very, very skewed in favor of men.

But we aren't allowed to point out a time a woman was sexist without having shoved down our throats that women have it 100000x worse in Westeros? Yes, everyone understands its nothing compared to the misogyny shown in the series.

No, I just bristle at the idea that somehow an old woman with obvious contempt for EVERYONE is being decried as a sexist nightmare harridan when in truth, she probably comes by her prejudices from a lifetime of experiences at watching those she considers more stupid than herself run things poorly.

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Can Olenna do to men what, say, a Tarly or Tywin can do to women?

Ofcourse she can, at least to a large number of men... She can have common men/hedge knights/ petty lords swore to Tyrells tortured, gelded, put to death etc very easily. I don't know why that would be in question, other women in ASOIAF (e.g. Cercei) actually do those things.

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As a feminist I quoted mrunderhill and told him he was correct, that there was a double standard going on and that Olenna is sexist. E-Ro asked a legitimate question and deserves a correct response, and I wanted to address the double standard view honestly as well, but I would like to elucidate my opinions. I've re-quoted mrunderhill and myself for clarification.

This thread is funny, but not surprising. If it was a male character saying these things about women, he would quickly become on of the most hated characters on the board. The defences being put together for Olenna are awful. Whilst Olenna accused SOME women of being stupid, she accused ALL men of being stupid and say only there penis is useful.

However, sexism is fine as long as it is against men.

You are correct. I feel Olenna is absolutely being sexist and shows misandry. Just because she has reasons for her behavior it does not excuse it, we all have are reasons. Also just because Olenna makes the same snarky comments with women do not excuse it and it further shows her sexist attitude includes women. And all women have some degree of sexism, towards both genders, as well. Go ahead and analyze the why for Olenna all you want but it is there.

I feel mrunderhill is correct and we all do this, it is normal and yes men do this too, we see it all of the time. Winter's Knight has provided quotes to help show this fact. If we genuinely want to effect sexist views in a positive way we should address them honestly, if not we will forever be at odds over issues like Cercei's penance walk.

Further, I feel, if we acknowledge Olenna's sexism we can open a dialogue about why she is that could enlighten us all regarding sexism in the story and within ourselves. I have sons and if they had a snarky grandmother like Olenna I would never allow them to believe her comments were acceptable, would you? But I would also point out that a patriarchal society is inherently wrong and could lead to that behavior, when you understand why you can effect change.

I have to add that Olenna's comment "foolish flock of hens" is not ok either and she is showing sexism towards women as well. Since a lifetime of frustration dealing with the sociocultural factors has manifested in sexism she seems to blame the 'foolish women' as well. But as a feminist I still battle with my sexism, towards both genders, because of the sociocultural factors in my life. Honestly with Olenna she most likely does not 'hate men', or women, but instead the system and she may have forgotten that or lost any hope for change. Does that make it ok?

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No, I just bristle at the idea that somehow an old woman with obvious contempt for EVERYONE is being decried as a sexist nightmare harridan when in truth, she probably comes by her prejudices from a lifetime of experiences at watching those she considers more stupid than herself run things poorly.

So saying men are only good for their penises isn't sexist at all, got it.

And she doesn't have contempt for everyone. As I recall, she called Margaery a clever girl. And she said good things about Ned I believe(about his honesty).

She just thinks all men are stupid. Clearly by her comments to Margaery, she doesn't think all women are stupid.

How is that not sexist?

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So saying men are only good for their penises isn't sexist at all, got it.

And she doesn't have contempt for everyone. As I recall, she called Margaery a clever girl. And she said good things about Ned I believe(about his honesty).

She just thinks all men are stupid. Clearly by her comments to Margaery, she doesn't think all women are stupid.

How is that not sexist?

According to this link posted by a feminist in GenChat only men can be sexist (according to feminism, or at least this particular strand of feminism)

http://finallyfemini...ts-towards-men/

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Ofcourse she can, at least to a large number of men... She can have common men/hedge knights/ petty lords swore to Tyrells tortured, gelded, put to death etc very easily. I don't know why that would be in question, other women in ASOIAF (e.g. Cercei) actually do those things.

I don't get why some people think the ASOIAF universe is purely man dominates woman.

From what we have seen, all lower born men have to defer and submit to high born women.

Remember the scene where Catelyn arrests Tyrion. Clearly Cat had more authority and power than all of those low born men.

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Look, it is fucking disrespectful to tell men to "stop whining" about sexism against them-one symptom of a misogynistic society is the ridiculous amount of pressure put on men to e manly. This is not an empty claim-sure it's nowhere near Randyll Tarly levels of sexism, nor is it as bad as what Westerosi women face but it is present and remarking upon it doesn't mean E-ro is whining or being petty.

If a topic doesn't interest you or doesn't seem worthy of discussion, walk away-don't come in and tell people who are interested in said topic that they are wasting their time, mmmk?

Well said!

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So saying men are only good for their penises isn't sexist at all, got it.

You obviously don't have it if you think you can dismiss my point so easily.

And she doesn't have contempt for everyone. As I recall, she called Margaery a clever girl. And she said good things about Ned I believe(about his honesty).

She just thinks all men are stupid. Clearly by her comments to Margaery, she doesn't think all women are stupid.

How is that not sexist?

There's sexism and there's sexism - the Northern lords ignoring Catelyn's humble, pragmatic advice seeking peace because she has the sweet, tender heart of a woman? That's worse than Lady Olenna making fun, in private, of Mace Tyrell as an oaf? Since it actually doesn't effect anything, I don't think it's all that horrific.

I think that sexism comes in levels, like all prejudices, and I would say I don't find it all that troublesome for those who are excluded from authority on the basis of an arbitrary social/biological feature, as much as I find it more problematic for those who benefit from the arbitrary social/biological feature using their attitudes to to enforce the exclusion. One has consequences, one really doesn't.

Plus, I often give the elderly a pass as the product of their upbringing and culture.

I am more troubled, for example, by Ned's annoyance that Sansa is watching him hold court as Hand when actual substantive issues are being discussed as "it was no place for a girl" even though he knows very well that by virtue of her birth and status is entirely possible that as a woman, she will be expected to rule a castle or fief in the name of an absent husband or minor child. That to me is sexist with severe consequences. Olenna making fun of her husband for chasing a hawk off a cliff... not so much. Even still, I can understand why Ned thinks so - Sansa is a his daughter, initially a soft, fussy thing. It's easy for him to make that assessment, even if it is sexist with consequences. However, I still find that more ... pernicious than an old lady with her lifetime of gripes and slights and observations commenting that men can be idiots.

edit: for example, I also think that the anti-bastard hysteria is truly atrocious, but I don't really kvetch so much that people comport themselves in a way in which their upbringing would informed them.

edit2: typos!

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Ofcourse she can, at least to a large number of men... She can have common men/hedge knights/ petty lords swore to Tyrells tortured, gelded, put to death etc very easily. I don't know why that would be in question, other women in ASOIAF (e.g. Cercei) actually do those things.

I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat. But first, Cersei is Queen Regent. Second, if Olenna started doing that then Mace would have a problem on his hands.

More importantly it isn't necessary for Olenna to do it to be considered sexist. I think that it's her schtick and I don't think she's sexist.

And as a male I find it petty and whiny when it comes to Olenna.

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According to this link posted by a feminist in GenChat only men can be sexist (according to feminism, or at least this particular strand of feminism)

http://finallyfemini...ts-towards-men/

Which is like saying liberalism = communism and conservatism = fascism :P

I see that your title is "Anti-Feminist" - let me define that title for you :) Feminism is, quite simply, the belief that women are the equals of men. So when you call yourself an "Anti-Feminist" you are basically saying that you do not believe that women and men are equal and should be treated as such.

I don't get why some people think the ASOIAF universe is purely man dominates woman.

From what we have seen, all lower born men have to defer and submit to high born women.

Remember the scene where Catelyn arrests Tyrion. Clearly Cat had more authority and power than all of those low born men.

I think the difference is between classism and sexism. In Cat's case, she had authority over those low-born men because she is of a higher class. However, she would be in a subservient position relative to men who are seen as her social equals like Ned, Tywin, or Edmure.

Which is to say, women of higher social classes have power over men of lower social classes, but all else equal, women are always less powerful than men.

ETA: I do not agree with posters calling this topic whiny - it was a valid question about an interesting character and is generating interesting discourse.

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You obviously don't have it if you think you can dismiss my point so easily.

There's sexism and there's sexism - the Northern lords ignoring Catelyn's humble, pragmatic advice seeking peace because she has the sweet, tender heart of a woman? That's worse than Lady Olenna making fun, in private, of Mace Tyrell as an oaf? Since it actually doesn't effect anything, I don't think it's all that horrific.

I think that sexism comes in levels, like all prejudices, and I would say I don't find it all that troublesome for those who are excluded from authority on the basis of an arbitrary social/biological feature, as much as I find it more problematic for those who benefit from the arbitrary social/biological feature using their attitudes to to enforce the exclusion. One has consequences, one really doesn't.

Plus, I often give the elderly a pass as the product of their upbringing and culture.

I am more troubled, for example, by Ned's annoyance that Sansa is watching him hold court as Hand when actual substantive issues are being discussed as "it was no place for a girl" even though he knows very well that by virtue of her birth and status is entirely possible that as a woman, she will be expected to rule a castle or fief in the name of an absent husband or minor child. That to me is sexist with severe consequences. Olenna making fun of her husband for chasing a hawk off a cliff... not so much. Even still, I can understand why Ned thinks so - Sansa is a his daughter, initially a soft, fussy thing. It''s easy for him to make that assessment, even if it is sexist with consequences.

edit: for example, I also think that the anti-bastard hysteria is truly atrocious, but I don't really kvetch so much that people comport themselves in a way in which their upbringing would informed them.

edit2: typos!

I am well aware of what you are saying. Yeah, the sexism towards the women is a lot worse than it is to men.

I even said Olenna's comments were trivial earlier, I am just saying that despite what some people are saying, that her comments were sexist, even if they weren't a big deal.

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I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat. But first, Cersei is Queen Regent. Second, if Olenna started doing that then Mace would have a problem on his hands.

More importantly it isn't necessary for Olenna to do it to be considered sexist. I think that it's her schtick and I don't think she's sexist.

And as a male I find it petty and whiny when it comes to Olenna.

I doubt anyone would make a fuss for a few commoners. In any case I merely pointed out something you said which was wrong, that Olenna could not subjugate "all" (I changed it to "a large number in my first response and provided a reason for that change) men and that she couldn't do to them what Tywin/Tarly/etc did to (some) women

Remember the scene where Catelyn arrests Tyrion. Clearly Cat had more authority and power than all of those low born men.

Very true. Also the scene where Catelyn orders a gaoler to let her see Jaime in ASoS

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I am well aware of what you are saying. Yeah, the sexism towards the women is a lot worse than it is to men.

Please don't talk down to me. I don't need you validate my points. I just wonder why you pounced on me when you now concede that we are largely on the same page.

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