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Stannis Lives

Shireen's True Purpose (spoilers)

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I've had a theory about Shireen since she was introduced, and upon the "death" of Jon Snow at the end of Book 5, it all came clear for me. I have posted this theory in a few places but I feel it's worthy of its own string for discussion.

I have always felt that Mel's obsession with King's Blood, and the resistance of Stannis' inner circle and later Jon, would eventually lead to Shireen. Her entire purpose and her entire arc has been for this moment. Her greyscale (disease of stone), her mother's obsession with the Lord of Light, getting to the wall, Jon removing King's Blood from the wall, Stannis' absence and potential death, Jon's potential death..... poor Shireen is all alone, unprotected, with a very very specific purpose: To fulfill the prophecy so that Mel can save Jon, and he can be reborn as AA.

When the red star bleeds - Ser Patrek's bloody body with stars in the sky

and darkness gathers, - winter is coming per the white raven

Azor Ahai shall be born amidst smoke and salt - Bowen's tears and Jon's wound

to wake dragons out of stone. -Shireen has the stone man's disease and has king's blood. Jon will be on the verge of death and Mel will sacrifice Shireen to save Jon, fulfilling the prophecy and Jon will be reborn as AA.

While I believe a horrid occurrence, it has just the right amount of crediblity and GRRM grit. Mel is committed enough to do it. The Queen is fanatical enough to help sacrifice her own daughter. To me it's dark, intense, consistent, powerful, and disturbing. This is right up GRRM's alley and will certainly be appeasing to fans rather than an unJon or Jon living his life as Ghost etc.

There has to be a reason for Shireen being at the wall with Stannis gone. It even begs the question if Mel wrote the fake Ramsay letter to get Jon to do something stupid and leave Shireen unprotected.

To take it one step farther and into potential "crack pot", it's possible that Jon (or Stannis) will be so outraged at Shireen's sacrifice for him, that he drives Longclaw into Mel's heart and withdraws Lightbringer, having bound Mel's soul to the sword. Or it may just be metaphorical and subtle.

I do think Jon will spend time in Ghost until Mel goes through with it, explore the North, learn who his parents are through Bran etc; but I am convinced that this is the way it goes down.

You can see more of the conversation at Some great input and analysis as always from J. Stargaryen, Alia of the Knife, Jon Icefyre as well as others. Thanks for your feedback.

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It's a nice theory, but I don't think Mels is the one to resurrect Jon, Bloodraven and Bran are. In Theon's TWOW sample chapter

the ravens in it keep saying "tree" and "Theon" this could be Bran or Bloodraven Skinchanging into the ravens and trying to get Stannis to agree with Asha about beheading Theon in front of the Weirwood.

Stannis will then go to the Weirwood, but before he can execute Theon, Theon remembers what Luwin said and requests to join the NW, and once a man has requested that, they are allowed to go. But this stops Bran and Bloodraven using Theon's blood sacrifice to force Jon's soul from Ghost back into Jon's body.

But in ADWD Asha had a POV called "The Sacrifice". Also in ADWD when cornered against a tree she almost gets killed. This foreshadows that in the Battle of Ice Asha will be cornered against the Weirwood tree and will be an accidental sacrifice for Bran and Bloodraven to use for Jon.

And I also think the wake the dragon out of stone could be people discovering Jon is a Targ (dragon) when they open Lyanna's tomb and find evidence of R+L=J, maybe Howland is there to show them.

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It's a nice theory, but I don't think Mels is the one to resurrect Jon, Bloodraven and Bran are. In Theon's TWOW sample chapter

the ravens in it keep saying "tree" and "Theon" this could be Bran or Bloodraven Skinchanging into the ravens and trying to get Stannis to agree with Asha about beheading Theon in front of the Weirwood.

Stannis will then go to the Weirwood, but before he can execute Theon, Theon remembers what Luwin said and requests to join the NW, and once a man has requested that, they are allowed to go. But this stops Bran and Bloodraven using Theon's blood sacrifice to force Jon's soul from Ghost back into Jon's body.

But in ADWD Asha had a POV called "The Sacrifice". Also in ADWD when cornered against a tree she almost gets killed. This foreshadows that in the Battle of Ice Asha will be cornered against the Weirwood tree and will be an accidental sacrifice for Bran and Bloodraven to use for Jon.

And I also think the wake the dragon out of stone could be people discovering Jon is a Targ (dragon) when they open Lyanna's tomb and find evidence of R+L=J, maybe Howland is there to show them.

We are certainly on the same page so far as a blood sacrifice goes. I do think Bran and Bloodraven will be involved but as I stated earlier, I think they will be his "spirit" guides as his body heals.

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I take the poem differently. I don't see the last line connecting to that of Azor Ahai being reborn. It seems to me more like the already reborn Azor Ahai "waking dragons" later.

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We are certainly on the same page so far as a blood sacrifice goes. I do think Bran and Bloodraven will be involved but as I stated earlier, I think they will be his "spirit" guides as his body heals.

Yeah, Bloodraven and Bran (I'm going to start calling them Branraven for short now) will have an important part to play.

On Mels being Nissa Nissa and Jon forging Lightbringer using her, I think that the NW is Lightbringer and Ygritte was Jon's Nissa Nissa. Nissa Nissa was someone Azor Ahai loved, and I don't think Jon will love Mels in your theory.

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There is nothing in the book that would suggest Mel knows how to resurrect dead individual. The TV show clearly states she doesn't have the power. Just as important, there is no reason for Mel to resurrect Jon Snow. The book clearly states Jon doesn't like Mel and resurrecting him would make political situation between the Nightwatch, wildlings and Queen men even worse than it was before the assasination.

Of course one could say Rhilor made her do it, but that's just pure speculation.

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There is nothing in the book that would suggest Mel knows how to resurrect dead individual. The TV show clearly states she doesn't have the power. Just as important, there is no reason for Mel to resurrect Jon Snow. The book clearly states Jon doesn't like Mel and resurrecting him would make political situation between the Nightwatch, wildlings and Queen men even worse than it was before the assasination.

Of course one could say Rhilor made her do it, but that's just pure speculation.

I want to be clear. I am not suggesting resurrection. I am suggesting a metaphorical rebirth while he lies on the verge of death. I can't completely rule out resurrection either but I think that will be too fantastical given Jon's arc. My point however, is that for better or for worse, Mel has been obsessed with the power of kings blood. Due to her visions asking to see AA she sees snow. She may believe that if stannis is dead or she believes stannis to be dead, she may be desperate enough to sacrifice shireen to save and heal Jon in order to save AA. She may even unintentionally fulfill the prophecy for lightbringer by causing so much distress that Jon kills her with the sword. All of the metaphorical signs of the last two chapters of book 5 seem to set up a perfect storm. Jon sent away all the kings blood except shireen. Stannis is gone. Mel is desperate. The queen will follow Mel to her grave. Jon needs to be saved (not resurrected). I also think that shireen a death could cause patch face to do something stupid that ultimately allows the others to conquer the wall and fulfill his prophecy of (dead) men rising from the seas on "dead" sea horses.

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Again. I don't see any reason why Mel would want to revive/resurrect Jon, specially if it were to require the death of Shireen. Mel is convinced Stannis AA AND that he is alive. Jon far as Mel concerned just another guy at the Wall who can be easily replaced as a Lord Commander by someone else.

Far as I can see, Mel would be just another bystander just as she was when attempt at Jon's life was made.

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Actually, after having gotten a letter claiming that Stannis is dead, I suppose Mel would want to consult her fires, the same fires that already didn't show her Stannis any more, but only Snow. Maybe they were to tell her now to do something about the Jon situation, and then the sacrifice happens?

It's an interesting theory, though I'm in favour of Jon being helped either by the Wildlings he fought for, or by his own Gods if he so needs it. I don't like the thought of him owing anything to Mel, and neither does he, I think. Plus Shireen, the poor girl, has done nothing wrong.

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It is probable, however I rather Jon stay dead if that ensures the continued safety of Shireen.

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I think you can add something to the OP, if you so wish. If I remember correctly, Shireen thinks a dragon will eat her?

Great catch

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Actually, after having gotten a letter claiming that Stannis is dead, I suppose Mel would want to consult her fires, the same fires that already didn't show her Stannis any more, but only Snow. Maybe they were to tell her now to do something about the Jon situation, and then the sacrifice happens?

It's an interesting theory, though I'm in favour of Jon being helped either by the Wildlings he fought for, or by his own Gods if he so needs it. I don't like the thought of him owing anything to Mel, and neither does he, I think. Plus Shireen, the poor girl, has done nothing wrong.

Exactly. Also he won't owe Mel anything if he kills her. If Mel sacrifices shireen, she will need to die. Jon will not be thankful to be alive because shireen is dead.

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Interesting theory. What would Selyse do if Mel required Shireen's blood? Which is stronger; her desire to protect her child or her zeal for R'hllor? It does look like Mel is about to switch to Jon as AAR so I can see her wanting to save him.

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I do wonder why GRRM chose to bring Shireen and Selyse to Castle Black, rather than just leaving them at Eastwatch. The only significant thing that's happened to them, as far as I can tell, is Val freaking out about Shireen's greyscale.

I don't see Mel burning Shireen though. Stannis definitely wouldn't allow it, and we haven't seen Mel disobey Stannis yet.

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Exactly. Also he won't owe Mel anything if he kills her. If Mel sacrifices shireen, she will need to die. Jon will not be thankful to be alive because shireen is dead.

What if Mels sacrifices Shireen but it doesn't do anything? I mean as far as we know Mels hasn't resurrected someone or knows how to, and she tries to use Shireen but does it wrong and just ends up killing her.

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Due to her visions asking to see AA she sees snow.

She doesn't see snow...she sees Snow. Does this mean she saw jon snow in her flames or the snow from the blizzard outside wf?

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She doesn't see snow...she sees Snow. Does this mean she saw jon snow in her flames or the snow from the blizzard outside wf?

I think since it's a capital S, it's Jon Snow.

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She doesn't see snow...she sees Snow. Does this mean she saw jon snow in her flames or the snow from the blizzard outside wf?

I think since it's a capital S, it's Jon Snow.

Sorry. I did mean Snow as in Jon Snow.

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