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Shireen's True Purpose (spoilers)


Stannis Lives

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There have been other theories, that Stannis will actually distance himself from R'hllor and get on the side of the Old Gods. This makes both sense for him (in order to get support from the North) as well as for Melisandre, who won't need Stannis as soon as she realizes that he isn't AAR.

If she were to sacrifice Shireen, that would be a fitting end for that arc and a tipping point for Stannis to turn against her god.

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I think this scenario brings up a moral conundrum. On the one hand you have the potential death of one of the most popular characters, if not the most popular. You also have the unanswered question of who Jon's parents are. Then you have shireen who is kings blood with a mother who has her own demons. Would she sacrifice her own daughter because of her fervent faith in The Lord of light? This creates a moral battle for the reader as well as the characters. Is a child's life worth the heros? Is your daughters life worth the savior of mankind? Is it ok to kill a child if your favorite character gets to live? And how important is it that the Starks are avenged? I think the morality for both reader and story is EXACTLY why this is such a compelling theory. It will create raging debates while staying true to the story. It will also justify the rebirth of Jon without it being a "fairy tale knight in shiny armor rebirth". Jon's purpose for living will always be questioned and tainted by himself and the readers. Was it worth it? Will he live his life to honor shireen and the price that was paid?

Don't get me wrong, I think it is very possible that Shireen could be sacrificed, I just don't think the results will be clean cut. I have a feeling Melisandre is going to screw up big time with her sorcery at one point or another. I think the other big child sacrifice is probably Jojen but even there I think things will go wrong. Jojen's death will cause Bran to gain powers but he may not follow Bloodraven after he discovers the truth. Jon Snow or some other character may become Azor Ahai through sacrifice but I don't think they are going to go in with a sword and defeat the bad guys so to speak.

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It's a horrible theory, but as much as I don't want to accept it, it does make a lot of sense.

As you say, I suspect it's just the kind of thing that GRRM would write about, the fact that Shireen is up there in Castle Black may give Mel ample opportunity to do this, and it is very plausible to believe that Stannis or Jon would end up killing Mel after this, hence forming "Lightbringer".

However, does Lightbringer need to be re-forged? How subtle is the AA prophecy and does it require a literal sacrifice? We are told that AA will be reborn amidst "salt and smoke", and there is something about blood and fire, so is a death actually required? We don't even know if Jon might be dead - he might just be unconscious and the "rebirth" might just mean needing to become a man, so to speak, remember what Maester Aemon says: "Winter is almost upon us, kill the boy Jon Snow and let the man be born" (Even this is beginning to sound ominous now lol).

I'm not sure whether it will require a sacrifice - especially if he is AAR, he might just be saved anyway through the power of R'hllor.

I took the prophecy as being more subtle than what we have been told, such as discovering his Targeryan side after his "rebirth" at the Wall, but I do admit that your theory could be a real prospect, albeit, a worryingly horrible one! Kudos to you for coming up with this.

ETA: Having re-read your OP, I now realise that you are not intimating that a sacrifice is needed to resurrect Jon, just to save/ heal him - sorry, if I misinterpreted that in my post.

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I have a feeling Melisandre is going to screw up big time with her sorcery at one point or another.

melisandre has already screwed up big time in her very wrong interpretation of the vision of the azor ahai which is the motivation for all her actions.

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melisandre has already screwed up big time in her very wrong interpretation of the vision of the azor ahai which is the motivation for all her actions.

Depends how you look at it, going to Stannis got her to Wall, where she kind of needs to be and led her to Jon. If she had showed up without Stannis she would not have the same level of agency to affect anything at the Wall. So, all in all, her fires led her on the best path to Wall.

I really kind of gave up guessing what GRRM was going to do, I think the only thing I called, along with every other person in the world was the Arya training with the FM thing, but then he could have easily gone somewhere else with her.

Still, I wouldn't mind if Shireen bit it, that's harsh to say about a kid, but she would be a horrible, horrible ruler.

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I think it's safe to say Shireen is important. Why else would the show cast her in Season 3 after learning GRRM's endgame. Especially because in Season 2 they didn't mention Stannis having a kid at all.

I hate the idea of her being sacrificed, but there is definite foreshadowing there. I hope GRRM is just trolling us though and Shireen end ups sitting on the IT in the end. :)

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I can see this happening. If she does it to save Jon, he's going to be mighty pissed when he wakes up. I can see a lot of dead folk at his feet, starting with Mel, Selyse and Stannis.

If she kills Shireen for a non-Jon purpose, I can see Davos showing up with Rickon, King in the North, and then Davos asks him to have Shaggy go to town.

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Very intriguing theory.

What if there's a possibility that would both do what you say -- wake Jon as AA by killing Shireen, but also at the same time "solve" the issues that 1) currently Melisandre believes Stannis to be AA; 2) Stannis might object to the killing of his daughter; and 3) Jon would definitely object to the killing of a child.

It's nothing different from what's already been said; it's just the intentions that are different.

And that is: Melisandre, believing Stannis to be AA, and for all reasons already stated, pinpoints Shireen as her next sacrifice. She gets word that he's "dead," and so in order to resurrect the man she believes to be AA (in fact, she may take his "death" as the sign she's been waiting for all along), she performs the ritual involving Shireen as her sacrifice (with Stannis "dead" there's no question about even asking him if this is OK, and Shireen's mother is so devout toward the Red God), but uses the same ambiguous phrasing we saw her using in her POV, so that she's asking for the return of Azor Ahai, or for his rebirth or whatever. And meanwhile, back on his death bed, Jon starts writhing and Changes Take Place. Would make for a pretty cool moment on the TV show, anyway, lol.

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It's a horrible theory, but as much as I don't want to accept it, it does make a lot of sense.

As you say, I suspect it's just the kind of thing that GRRM would write about, the fact that Shireen is up there in Castle Black may give Mel ample opportunity to do this, and it is very plausible to believe that Stannis or Jon would end up killing Mel after this, hence forming "Lightbringer".

However, does Lightbringer need to be re-forged? How subtle is the AA prophecy and does it require a literal sacrifice? We are told that AA will be reborn amidst "salt and smoke", and there is something about blood and fire, so is a death actually required? We don't even know if Jon might be dead - he might just be unconscious and the "rebirth" might just mean needing to become a man, so to speak, remember what Maester Aemon says: "Winter is almost upon us, kill the boy Jon Snow and let the man be born".

I'm not sure whether it will require a sacrifice - especially if he is AAR, he might just be saved anyway through the power of R'hllor.

I took the prophecy as being more subtle than what we have been told, such as discovering his Targeryan side after his "rebirth" at the Wall, but I do admit that your theory could be a real prospect, albeit, a worryingly horrible one! Kudos to you for coming up with this.

I was trying to leave the magical aspect openended. Personally, I do think it's all a subtle metaphorical rebirth. Even the signs were subtle. I don't think he is necessarily going to walk out of fire like Dany or stab Mel in the heart and turn into He-Man. I think it is his awakening. Here's a post I wrote on a different thread about the topic:

You touch upon the "metaphorical sense" of the prophecy below which is really how I believe the prophecy needs to be read. I don't think it's literal and I think it has been sensationalized over thousands of years. There is always truth to GRRM's prophecies but also always exaggeration it seems. There is most certainly metaphor. I don't think there needs to be a "bleeding star" or literal "salt and smoke" or literal dragons out of stone. I realize that this is what you are saying but that's why I also believe that the careful wording of Marsh's tears and Jon's "smoking" wound and Ser Patrick's starry sigl in the night sky are simply the metaphorical sign, symbolizing the arrival of AA. I also don't think it's literally AA who is reborn. It's simply the next great hero. If you read the entire prophecy as simply a guide to watch for the signs coming together, it becomes much like Maggy's prophecy or Dany's visions in the hotu. I do not think it's going to be some supernatural rebirth. For the analytical eye, the signs are simply telling you that the prophecy is about to be fulfilled. It's thousands of years later and nobody knew what it would mean in "today's" terms. It's like saying in 2000BC that "a great iron four legged beast will eat a princess" etc and it turns out to be a car crash. I think it should be extremely subtle. Otherwise it's more of a direct prediction than a prophecy, right? Ser Patrick's bleeding stars, Marsh's salty tears, Jon's smoking wound, Shireen's disease of stone, king's blood, mel's obsession, stannis is gone, jon's near death experience, the arrival of the darkness through the white raven. Many subtle signs all congregating at exactly the same time, within two chapters of each other, at the end of the 5th book. It feels right. The signs are so subtle but GRRM uses the parallel words in each explanation.
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Very intriguing theory.

What if there's a possibility that would both do what you say -- wake Jon as AA by killing Shireen, but also at the same time "solve" the issues that 1) currently Melisandre believes Stannis to be AA; 2) Stannis might object to the killing of his daughter; and 3) Jon would definitely object to the killing of a child.

It's nothing different from what's already been said; it's just the intentions that are different.

And that is: Melisandre, believing Stannis to be AA, and for all reasons already stated, pinpoints Shireen as her next sacrifice. She gets word that he's "dead," and so in order to resurrect the man she believes to be AA (in fact, she may take his "death" as the sign she's been waiting for all along), she performs the ritual involving Shireen as her sacrifice (with Stannis "dead" there's no question about even asking him if this is OK, and Shireen's mother is so devout toward the Red God), but uses the same ambiguous phrasing we saw her using in her POV, so that she's asking for the return of Azor Ahai, or for his rebirth or whatever. And meanwhile, back on his death bed, Jon starts writhing and Changes Take Place. Would make for a pretty cool moment on the TV show, anyway, lol.

That is AWESOME. Would play out amazingly well. Great imagery.

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Very intriguing theory.

What if there's a possibility that would both do what you say -- wake Jon as AA by killing Shireen, but also at the same time "solve" the issues that 1) currently Melisandre believes Stannis to be AA; 2) Stannis might object to the killing of his daughter; and 3) Jon would definitely object to the killing of a child.

It's nothing different from what's already been said; it's just the intentions that are different.

And that is: Melisandre, believing Stannis to be AA, and for all reasons already stated, pinpoints Shireen as her next sacrifice. She gets word that he's "dead," and so in order to resurrect the man she believes to be AA (in fact, she may take his "death" as the sign she's been waiting for all along), she performs the ritual involving Shireen as her sacrifice (with Stannis "dead" there's no question about even asking him if this is OK, and Shireen's mother is so devout toward the Red God), but uses the same ambiguous phrasing we saw her using in her POV, so that she's asking for the return of Azor Ahai, or for his rebirth or whatever. And meanwhile, back on his death bed, Jon starts writhing and Changes Take Place. Would make for a pretty cool moment on the TV show, anyway, lol.

Oooh....

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And that is: Melisandre, believing Stannis to be AA, and for all reasons already stated, pinpoints Shireen as her next sacrifice. She gets word that he's "dead," and so in order to resurrect the man she believes to be AA (in fact, she may take his "death" as the sign she's been waiting for all along), she performs the ritual involving Shireen as her sacrifice (with Stannis "dead" there's no question about even asking him if this is OK, and Shireen's mother is so devout toward the Red God), but uses the same ambiguous phrasing we saw her using in her POV, so that she's asking for the return of Azor Ahai, or for his rebirth or whatever. And meanwhile, back on his death bed, Jon starts writhing and Changes Take Place. Would make for a pretty cool moment on the TV show, anyway, lol.

I said on the other thread where Stannis Lives originally posted this idea that I really like it because it gives a story-based explanation for Selyse and Shireen and them being at the Wall. Otherwise, they seem like interesting, but totally random characters to me. Once this theory was laid out, it all kind of makese sense, and you can see the foreshadowing. All of Jon's efforts to get anyone with king's blood away from Mel (well, except for himself), but there is nothing he can do about Shireen, really, plus he probably wouldn't think Selyse would be that bonkers.

Like others, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that Mel's misinterpretation of things and the death of a child lead to "good" things like Jon coming back, so I would expect to see some unanticipated consequences of this. Maybe this leads to the Wall falling somehow? I don't have a clue, but I expect some fallout.

But yes, I can definitely see this happening, and from a story-telling perspective, it would be kind of awesome. Like you said, you can totally see this happening on the show, lol.

A bit off topic, but I read a theory once, perhaps on this forum, that Shireen is unShireen who was brought back by Mel, which is what led to the weird devotion of Stannis and Selyse. That's....interesting.

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It's a nice theory, but I don't think Mels is the one to resurrect Jon, Bloodraven and Bran are. In Theon's TWOW sample chapter

the ravens in it keep saying "tree" and "Theon" this could be Bran or Bloodraven Skinchanging into the ravens and trying to get Stannis to agree with Asha about beheading Theon in front of the Weirwood.

Stannis will then go to the Weirwood, but before he can execute Theon, Theon remembers what Luwin said and requests to join the NW, and once a man has requested that, they are allowed to go. But this stops Bran and Bloodraven using Theon's blood sacrifice to force Jon's soul from Ghost back into Jon's body.

But in ADWD Asha had a POV called "The Sacrifice". Also in ADWD when cornered against a tree she almost gets killed. This foreshadows that in the Battle of Ice Asha will be cornered against the Weirwood tree and will be an accidental sacrifice for Bran and Bloodraven to use for Jon.

And I also think the wake the dragon out of stone could be people discovering Jon is a Targ (dragon) when they open Lyanna's tomb and find evidence of R+L=J, maybe Howland is there to show them.

I think Mel will rather use Shireen to wake a stone or shadow dragon after Shireen's greyscale wakes again. Mel will tell Stannis that Shireen is dead anyway so they might as well.

Mel won't resurrect Jon otherwise he will be like UnBeric or UnCat, but rather Br and Bran will aid him, as Jon isn't dead but in a coma.

I agree with this.

Having thought more about it, successfully sacrificing Shireen to save AAR - whether that be Jon - could surely make Jon very other-unworldly and most likely, not in a good way at all.

I am not sure whether that would bode well for the fight ahead.

Okay, Mel's fires have inadvertently led her to the Wall, but I wonder whether how much of this is fate and how much of it is her own doing? She certainly didn't get all this information from her fires (or if she did, she didn't quite get it), because she first identified Stannis as AA, then moved on to Jon.

It seems to me that she might be correctly reading about half of what the fires are telling her and making the rest up as she goes along.

Although I am not a fan of the prophecies being literal in their meaning, such as a literal sacrifice required to forge "Lightbringer" for instance, might it be possible that if such a sacrifice is required, Shireen's death could just be the catalyst for the real sacrifice needed - such as Mel's own death?

Perhaps Mel is the sacrifice that is required to forge "Lightbringer" (if such a sacrifice is indeed required)?

Maybe that is why she is at the Wall, and maybe that is the one part of the prophecy that she has not figured out for herself?

If Jon is to be "reborn", I don't think it (and indeed, I hope that it won't) be at Mel's hands or at Shireen's expense - I can't imagine UnJon being a good instrument with which to lead the charge against the Others, and if he is THAT important, R'hllor may choose to save him anyway.

Although I agree that it sounds really ominous that the dragon awoken from stone could actually be Jon - the three headed dragon - Mel's belief that Shireen's death (blood of the Kings and all that) is either required to awaken "dragons from stone" or AAR (or both if they are one and the same) might be completely mistaken.

Shireen's death could act as the catalyst for Mel's own demise.

In a purely metaphorical sense, the "death" of a King (Stannis) followed by the sacrifice of his daughter, Shireen, could awaken a dragon from stone (Jon's anger) which could then lead to him fulfilling the real sacrifice (killing Mel) to "forge" Lightbringer?

Nevertheless, with the excellent points raised by the OP, I am resigned to the fact that something horrible will probably happen to Shireen in the foreseeable :o

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I think it's safe to say Shireen is important. Why else would the show cast her in Season 3 after learning GRRM's endgame. Especially because in Season 2 they didn't mention Stannis having a kid at all.

I hate the idea of her being sacrificed, but there is definite foreshadowing there. I hope GRRM is just trolling us though and Shireen end ups sitting on the IT in the end. :)

She would be a terryble ruler and I doubt she will ever grow to adoldhood.

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I said on the other thread where Stannis Lives originally posted this idea that I really like it because it gives a story-based explanation for Selyse and Shireen and them being at the Wall. Otherwise, they seem like interesting, but totally random characters to me. Once this theory was laid out, it all kind of makese sense, and you can see the foreshadowing. All of Jon's efforts to get anyone with king's blood away from Mel (well, except for himself), but there is nothing he can do about Shireen, really, plus he probably wouldn't think Selyse would be that bonkers.

Like others, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that Mel's misinterpretation of things and the death of a child lead to "good" things like Jon coming back, so I would expect to see some unanticipated consequences of this. Maybe this leads to the Wall falling somehow? I don't have a clue, but I expect some fallout.

But yes, I can definitely see this happening, and from a story-telling perspective, it would be kind of awesome. Like you said, you can totally see this happening on the show, lol.

A bit off topic, but I read a theory once, perhaps on this forum, that Shireen is unShireen who was brought back by Mel, which is what led to the weird devotion of Stannis and Selyse. That's....interesting.

This could very well play into the Patchface Prophecies. Mel is fearful of Patchface and sees him in her visions surrounded by skulls with a mouth full of blood.

"I will lead it. We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh (ADWD)"

If you buy into the "under the sea = death" theory, this can easily be interpreted as Patchface becoming a wight and rising from the dead to lead wights on the backs of undead horses to attack the wall, while the NW blows their horn (or maybe it's the Horn of Winter?). After Shireen's death, perhaps Patchface releases the wights and ultimately lets in the Others.

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