Shireen's True Purpose (spoilers)

[Stannis Lives]

This is disturbing, and the pieces are there. Wow OP, you ruined my lunch. Good job.

Ha. There's always dinner to look forward to.

[Alia of the knife]

As I told you before, I think it's one of the best interpretations because it ties together all the other parallel events such as Dany's "sacrifice" of MM in which case that blood sacrifice hatches her dragons. I think Mel will sacrifice Shireen, but while she focuses on her "kings blood," it's actually the blood itself that awakens Jon, combined with my theory he will be given to the flames as well by his brothers to hide their crime, but also to keep him from "turning," so his "awakening" will be very much like Danys.

But, as with most people who try and manipulate prophesy, they usually get the unexpected, so between her machinations and Jons assassins, they awaken the dragon in Jon.

You also see conversely on the Stark side the allusion to blood sacrifices being given to the Weirwood trees as in Brans vision of the old woman with the scythe.

He even tastes the blood.

As for Patchface, could he become the Great Other in reaction to Shireens death?

[Stannis Lives]

As I told you before, I think it's one of the best interpretations because it ties together all the other parallel events such as Dany's "sacrifice" of MM in which case that blood sacrifice hatches her dragons. I think Mel will sacrifice Shireen, but while she focuses on her "kings blood," it's actually the blood itself that awakens Jon, combined with my theory he will be given to the flames as well by his brothers to hide their crime, but also to keep him from "turning," so his "awakening" will be very much like Danys.

But, as with most people who try and manipulate prophesy, they usually get the unexpected, so between her machinations and Jons assassins, they awaken the dragon in Jon.

You also see conversely on the Stark side the allusion to blood sacrifices being given to the Weirwood trees as in Brans vision of the old woman with the scythe.

He even tastes the blood.

As for Patchface, could he become the Great Other in reaction to Shireens death?

I like the weirwood observation. Completely missed the tie in to brans vision. Your commentary on the other thread was insightful as well and definitely helped tie together some of the other pieces for me. Especially where Val was involved in the foreshadowing. Patchface is a complete wildcard. How ironic if the great other was beneath Mel's nose the entire time and she caused the transformation.

[Alia of the knife]

I like the weirwood observation. Completely missed the tie in to brans vision. Your commentary on the other thread was insightful as well and definitely helped tie together some of the other pieces for me. Especially where Val was involved in the foreshadowing. Patchface is a complete wildcard. How ironic if the great other was beneath Mel's nose the entire time and she caused the transformation.

Right, Val thinks of Shireen as an abomination, which is interesting coming from Val who seems to be a fair minded person yet her reaction to little Shireen is visceral.

Either Shireen is just a little girl with an affliction, or she too is something that perhaps ties into Patch Faces destiny.

And as we discussed previously, given Martins feelings on organized religion, he may be speaking to the themes of religious zealotry and people who take it within their hands to force "prophesy," and getting the unexpected.

[SolFreer]

There is nothing in the book that would suggest Mel knows how to resurrect dead individual. The TV show clearly states she doesn't have the power. Just as important, there is no reason for Mel to resurrect Jon Snow. The book clearly states Jon doesn't like Mel and resurrecting him would make political situation between the Nightwatch, wildlings and Queen men even worse than it was before the assasination.

Of course one could say Rhilor made her do it, but that's just pure speculation.

Thoros didn't know how to resurrect a dead person either, until he did it. So this is not evidence against her doing it. If she believes Jon is AA, then she in her infinite faith in R'hllor will assume that the lord of light will give her the power to resurrect him when she needs to.

Great theory, OP. I'm all for it! I also like the idea that the dragon in the prophecy isn't a real one, but is Jon Targaryen being awoken from the stone girl. Introducing another dragon at this stage of the story would be silly (who'd be the 4th rider, would it even grow up by the end of the 7th book, etc).

[sabrecmc]

IIRC, and it has been awhile since I looked at Patchface's prophecies, but doesn't one say something about under the sea (presumably, in death or in winter), the mermaids blow seashells to announce our coming...sounds a lot blowing a horn...hmmm. I know Jon gave Sam the horn they found on the Fist, but that part along with this speculation about Shireen has me wondering. Even if Patchface isn't the Great Other himself, maybe something is controlling him, like Bran warging Hodor.

ETA: The more I think about this, the more I like it. I think I might be disappointed if it doesn't turn out this way, lol. Patchface as the Great Other's sleeper agent sounds kind of awesome to me.

[Stannis Lives]

IIRC, and it has been awhile since I looked at Patchface's prophecies, but doesn't one say something about under the sea (presumably, in death or in winter), the mermaids blow seashells to announce our coming...sounds a lot blowing a horn...hmmm. I know Jon gave Sam the horn they found on the Fist, but that part along with this speculation about Shireen has me wondering. Even if Patchface isn't the Great Other himself, maybe something is controlling him, like Bran warging Hodor.

ETA: The more I think about this, the more I like it. I think I might be disappointed if it doesn't turn out this way, lol. Patchface as the Great Other's sleeper agent sounds kind of awesome to me.

:agree: Here's a comment I made earlier in the thread about Patchface. Couldn't agree more. I too would be disappointed if it doesn't play out this way.

This could very well play into the Patchface Prophecies. Mel is fearful of Patchface and sees him in her visions surrounded by skulls with a mouth full of blood.

"I will lead it. We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh (ADWD)"

If you buy into the "under the sea = death" theory, this can easily be interpreted as Patchface becoming a wight and rising from the dead to lead wights on the backs of undead horses to attack the wall, while the NW blows their horn (or maybe it's the Horn of Winter?). After Shireen's death, perhaps Patchface releases the wights and ultimately lets in the Others.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

Still think Patchface will kill Mel, or Shireen. But I highly doubt Stannis will allow his daughter to be burnt, or if he men would. Even if they are 'queen's men'. But, maybe! I have a theory that Stannis will execute Mel once he's won the throne. :)

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

I'll say this again, Ser Patrek was a character that GRRM made because he lost a bet with a friend. He designed the sigil based on the Cowboys logo, and had him ripped apart by a Giant. It's a football joke. I highly doubt that he is using this to fulfill such an important prophecy.

We know it's a joke because GRRM says it is:

http://www.npr.org/2...lays-not-my-job

[ZeeAppoponaxComes]

You know nothing Jon Snow was more than a phrase to me when I was reading from the beginning. How ever the awakening/rebirth happens, and this idea is my favorite so far, it will be interesting to see who Jon is when he finally knows something.

[Dany Girl]

Does anyone else think Shireen could be the Stone Dragon? She has greyscales (face turned to stone) and Targ blood. I know it's a bit crackpot. I'm just thinking Shireen with her greyscales has a deeper meaning lately. Maybe Mel will try to sacrifice her for Jon by burning, but "a true dragon cannot burn" according to Dany. The burning (maybe along with some other sacrifices, Bowen Marsh for example) will create a Dany in the pry 2.0 with the miraculous rebirth of Shireen in smoke and salt (her tears, being burned is scary). She will emerge from the flames as healed and stronger as she is now the stone dragon (and AAR, with the NW or Jon as her lightbringe). She will then kill Mel, kick the Other's asses and be crowned Queen.

[jenerationx]

Still think Patchface will kill Mel, or Shireen. But I highly doubt Stannis will allow his daughter to be burnt, or if he men would. Even if they are 'queen's men'. But, maybe! I have a theory that Stannis will execute Mel once he's won the throne. :)

I'd like to see those men stand up to Mel. She does what she wants.

As for Stannis, he's not even there. She thinks he's dead. So it's not like she's going to go ask him for permission.

[silentwanderer]

Still think Patchface will kill Mel, or Shireen. But I highly doubt Stannis will allow his daughter to be burnt, or if he men would. Even if they are 'queen's men'. But, maybe! I have a theory that Stannis will execute Mel once he's won the throne. :)

I still think Patchface is already dead, but no one would notice until the Others finally get to Castle Black.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Does anyone else think Shireen could be the Stone Dragon? She has greyscales (face turned to stone) and Targ blood. I know it's a bit crackpot. I'm just thinking Shireen with her greyscales has a deeper meaning lately. Maybe Mel will try to sacrifice her for Jon by burning, but "a true dragon cannot burn" according to Dany. The burning (maybe along with some other sacrifices, Bowen Marsh for example) will create a Dany in the pry 2.0 with the miraculous rebirth of Shireen in smoke and salt (her tears, being burned is scary). She will emerge from the flames as healed and stronger as she is now the stone dragon (and AAR, with the NW or Jon as her lightbringe). She will then kill Mel, kick the Other's asses and be crowned Queen.

I'd love this much better if it were true actually (but only in part, because I don't want to see Shireen sacrificed!) - even though Stannis Lives' theory makes for an awesome story.

Shireen DOES indeed have Targ blood, the greyscales have been associated with stone and she has had dreams of being eaten by a dragon. Like you, I admit it's a bit crackpottery, but could she be the third dragon rider?

After all, the PtwP prophecy doesn't say that the awakening of dragons from stone is needed for AA's rebirth, but rather the other way around.

Hence the awakening of the "dragon from stone" could apply to Shireen although the description could also fit Jon - if he is the three headed dragon being awoken from the "stone" girl, so to speak.

I've thought a bit more about this (should put these books down now I think lol) and as I said earlier, I agree with some posters that using another to save Jon could produce some very undesired results. The BwB seem to have lost their purpose and direction after gaining UnCat as their leader, so how could UnJon be productive for the NW in the fight against the Others?

I do think though after all is said and done, that something rather ominous is in the offing for Shireen, especially with Val's foreshadowing and the "burning dead children" observation.

However, perhaps Mel will pose no threat to Shireen whatsoever, and maybe the real threat actually lies with Patchface?

After all, Mel believes him to be dangerous, seems afraid of him and he has hinted at some very ominous signs which could be interpreted as him leading a pack of wights to attack the wall with the arrival of the Others?

Is it possible that both he and Shireen will become wights instead and that he may try to use her for his purposes? Is it also plausible that this is where the "burning dead children" allusion comes from?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Certainly has a ring of truth to it. Well done, OP.

[Dragonstar]

Fantastic idea, though very sad for poor doomed little Shireen. Makes rational sense of her current geographic and narrative situation

[TheTowerOfJoy]

If we combined this one with another theory around here (that Mel was freeing Ghost right as Jon was attacked due to something she saw in her fires), then I think we may have the whole sequence.

Mel frees Ghost, who immediately runs to Jon's aid, killing the attackers. Mel arrives and we find out that Jon is still alive, but only barely, and she says it will take great magic to save him. Meanwhile he wargs to Ghost (much like Bran) and travels North, where we learn more about what the Others are up to, which includes marching on the wall. Mel talks Selyse into sacrificing Shireen, telling her that the God of Light has shown her the path to victory over the Great Other. They do the sacrifice, Jon is "reborn", and Patchface frees the wights and opens the doors just as the Others arrive. They storm the wall, and Jon kills Mel for sacrificing Shireen, with Selyse killed in the attack. After being defeated and forced to retreat, Jon rallies the remaining Night's Watch and wildlings to head south on his initial mission, and to warn them of the Others coming,

[The Red Melli]

I don't think Melisandre would do that.

Even after GRRM mentioned that Melisandre is the MOST misunderstood character.

If Mel would do that then she's definitely evil.

I'm sure in WoW GRRM will portray Melisandre as a "Good Guy"

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I don't think Melisandre would do that.

Even after GRRM mentioned that Melisandre is the MOST misunderstood character.

If Mel would do that then she's definitely evil.

I'm sure in WoW GRRM will portray Melisandre as a "Good Guy"

Why not? If Stannis is believed dead, and she sees something from her fires that tell her that Jon is AAR, instead of Stannis? She was pushing to sacrifice Edric, and only Davos was able to stop her, and neither Davos nor Stannis are at the wall to stop her from it this time.

[AtomixIGN]

I think OP has this totally nailed.

This could very well play into the Patchface Prophecies. Mel is fearful of Patchface and sees him in her visions surrounded by skulls with a mouth full of blood.

"I will lead it. We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh (ADWD)"

If you buy into the "under the sea = death" theory, this can easily be interpreted as Patchface becoming a wight and rising from the dead to lead wights on the backs of undead horses to attack the wall, while the NW blows their horn (or maybe it's the Horn of Winter?). After Shireen's death, perhaps Patchface releases the wights and ultimately lets in the Others.

House Manderly's sigil is the merman. The Wights could sweep across the east coast under the water, around the wall - hitting Karhold, The Dreadfort and Hornwood on their way to White Harbor and their fleet, food stores, and ravens. I think the Wall will hold to a point, and Winterfell will be a stronghold after that. But the dead will march due south.