Why Sansa is a great character

[Lala]

You can add me to the list. Though Im not sure if Im as big of a fan as the ones you mentioned, or Mladen. He's one of the biggest Sansa fans Ive ever encountered.

Welcome~ Would you like a celebratory cupcake? :)

If Arya_Nym was responding to my post, I am in no way saying that if a girl does not respond positively to Sansa that she is unfeminine. I am simply pointing out that Sansa's very "feminine" persona makes her a character that is much more likely to engender a "I am just like her" connection in women than she is in men.

What does irritate me is when the argument is made that "Arya would have done this" or "Arya did this" to prove that Sansa did not fight back. Sansa and Arya are very different characters and both equally strong female protagonists - Sansa does fight back - she simply fights back in her own way, because she is Sansa, not Arya.

ETA: I can go purchase some cupcakes with the "iron price" just for you Talal~

Also I'm starting to discover that Sansa is the one topic I can mind dump on with minimal use of any brainpower - it's so instinctive at this point xD

[TalalOfDorne]

lol, nah its cool. Sansa is pretty great, i shouldn't keep hiding my feelings on the matter.

What you should hide is your members title to stop me from supporting a Stannis/Green Grace ship :P

About Sansas inactivity:

Im not sure if she could have done much in her position. Maybe she just focused more on not getting the Lannisters to suspect her (Though as mentioned above she did try to kill Joffrey).

Welcome~ Would you like a celebratory cupcake? :)

Why not :D ?

What does irritate me is when the argument is made that "Arya would have done this" or "Arya did this" to prove that Sansa did not fight back. Sansa and Arya are very different characters and both equally strong female protagonists - Sansa does fight back - she simply fights back in her own way, because she is Sansa, not Arya.

I always get the feeling that Arya wouldnt have been as successful as Sansa in KL and vice versa.

[Kittykatknits]

I've been meaning to start a thread on this but I didn't know if people would find it offensive or sexist somehow :dunno:

No, I don't think you would be. I'd respond! We've had threads in the past on how one's age, religious beliefs, political opinions, and such inform or influence their understanding and approach to the series. I'd say this falls under that and suspect you'd get great responses.

You can add me to the list. Though Im not sure if Im as big of a fan as the ones you mentioned, or Mladen. He's one of the biggest Sansa fans Ive ever encountered.

Yep, I should have added you to that list. I'm really embarrased I left off Mladen. :blushing:

[Florina Laufeyson]

I've been meaning to start a thread on this but I didn't know if people would find it offensive or sexist somehow :dunno:

I'm a dude and Sansa is my 5th favorite character. I don't really have anything new to say, you all have already described Sansa's awesomeness: her endurance, her realism, her little acts of rebellion.

Something I've noticed when people compare Sansa and Arya is that they don't realize that Arya is as naive as Sansa in some ways. I don't have the exact quote now, but in aCoK, when Yoren considers going to Harrenhal, Arya thinks something like "There's knights in Harrenhal, and knights are supposed to protect people and keep you safe". I think it's interesting that Sandor is the one who shatters both girls' illusions about knighthood and makes them both more cynical.

Also, I like how Arya and Sansa are placed in situations especially suited for their own strenghts. Sansa wouldn't have lasted a day on the kingsroad, but Joffrey would've killed Arya for being unable to control herself in court.

Well to be fair, Arya was already aware of the douchery that knights possess by the time she hangs out with Sandor. But the two girls do have some parallels. Like the loss of identity and separation from their family. But the situations are so different that its hard to imagine one in the other's shoes. Ya know? Exploring the parallels in Sansa's and Arya's arcs is a lot of fun but often turns into a pit fighting match if the thread isnt well crafted. All the Stark kids have parallels in their story lines which is pretty interesting. Jon and Robb share a lot of similarities in story arcs. Bran shows parallels to every other Stark kid in some way.

[ARYa_Nym]

Welcome~ Would you like a celebratory cupcake? :)

If Arya_Nym was responding to my post, I am in no way saying that if a girl does not respond positively to Sansa that she is unfeminine. I am simply pointing out that Sansa's very "feminine" persona makes her a character that is much more likely to engender a "I am just like her" connection in women than she is in men.

What does irritate me is when the argument is made that "Arya would have done this" or "Arya did this" to prove that Sansa did not fight back. Sansa and Arya are very different characters and both equally strong female protagonists - Sansa does fight back - she simply fights back in her own way, because she is Sansa, not Arya.

ETA: I can go purchase some cupcakes with the "iron price" just for you Talal~

Also I'm starting to discover that Sansa is the one topic I can mind dump on with minimal use of any brainpower - it's so instinctive at this point xD

I'm just saying that she's not immediately relatable just because she's feminine. & those who dislike her it's not going to automatically be because she's "nuanced". I don't automatically like a character just because they are warrior women or into magic. I don't like Ygritte. Let me go another series. Twilight. Bella is a typical girl who doesn't fight save for near the end. I'm not going to automatically like her just because of that.

It goes both ways. The fandom who are pro Sansa support her way of doing things as the correct way and you will have those who like Arya who will support the way she does things as the right way.

[Lala]

What you should hide is your members title to stop me from supporting a Stannis/Green Grace ship :P

About Sansas inactivity:

Im not sure if she could have done much in her position. Maybe she just focused more on not getting the Lannisters to suspect her (Though as mentioned above she did try to kill Joffrey).

Why not :D ?

I always get the feeling that Arya wouldnt have been as successful as Sansa in KL and vice versa.

Fully agreed~ They express two very different types of strength, but they're both amazing young women :)

I do admit I don't emotionally connect with Arya - my mind tells me "she's pretty awesome!" but my heart is all "meh~" probably for the same reasons that some people can't connect with Sansa, I don't relate to Arya, we're almost polar opposites (can you guess that I am so very Sansa at heart?) - but this doesn't stop me from appreciating her or recognizing her awesomeness.

Seasalt cupcakes for all~ Paid with the iron price :devil:

ETA: why does there need to be a right way? why can't both girls simply be doing their best to uphold their identities and values in a world that is filled with people trying to rob that from them? why does Arya's way being correct automatically disenfranchise Sansa's way and vice versa? I don't understand what you're saying

[Targed&Feathered]

Seems like a lot of folks would prefer Sansa to be like Arrianne... when limited as a Female , to use her sexuality as power. Sansa is not cut from that cloth. She is forced to lose her idealism in a hurry, but in keeping with her Stark heritage & upbringing, does so reluctantly & far more subtly. The refusal to kneel when cloaked at her wedding displayed that she is neither a fool nor a coward, & I expect her future considerations to be equally subtle as well as brave. I adore her & secretly hope she is the beauty that somehow displaces Cersei, tho I have no theories on how this might occur. And this opinion is from a female who is farrrr more like Arianne herself in real life, & barely recalls being an innocent even when I was a young teen.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Twilight. Bella is a typical girl who doesn't fight save for near the end. I'm not going to automatically like her just because of that.

Bella is also a Mary Sue. There arent any of those in ASOIAF. (despite how many people think otherwise.)

Seasalt cupcakes for all~ Paid with the iron price

OM NOM NOM!

Seems like a lot of folks would prefer Sansa to be like Arrianne... when limited as a Female , to use her sexuality as power.

I cant speak for everybody, but i can safely say that im glad Sansa didnt go that route.

[Jon of the Dead]

Well to be fair, Arya was already aware of the douchery that knights possess by the time she hangs out with Sandor. But the two girls do have some parallels. Like the loss of identity and separation from their family. But the situations are so different that its hard to imagine one in the other's shoes. Ya know? Exploring the parallels in Sansa's and Arya's arcs is a lot of fun but often turns into a pit fighting match if the thread isnt well crafted. All the Stark kids have parallels in their story lines which is pretty interesting. Jon and Robb share a lot of similarities in story arcs. Bran shows parallels to every other Stark kid in some way.

At the risk of turning the thread into a pit fight, I'll just say I think it's interesting how despite being disenchanted with knighthood from before, both girls cling to a last hope of sorts. For Arya this last hope is Sandor. When she leaves him to die on the road, she says: "you should've saved my mother, you should've stayed and fight" (or something like that). So even after all she had seen, a part of her still believed in knighthood and the values it stands for. For Sansa, this last hope is Dontos. She trusts him until she realizes all he cared about was money.

[Lala]

At the risk of turning the thread into a pit fight, I'll just say I think it's interesting how despite being disenchanted with knighthood from before, both girls cling to a last hope of sorts. For Arya this last hope is Sandor. When she leaves him to die on the road, she says: "you should've saved my mother, you should've stayed and fight" (or something like that). So even after all she had seen, a part of her still believed in knighthood and the values it stands for. For Sansa, this last hope is Dontos. She trusts him until she realizes all he cared about was money.

This is an interesting point. I actually see parallels between Sansa trusting Dontos and Dany trusting MMD. Both Sansa and Dany "saved" the other character and consequently believe that they can trust them. However, this isn't LoTR and even then, Gollum still betrays Frodo in the end :P

[TalalOfDorne]

Fully agreed~ They express two very different types of strength, but they're both amazing young women :)

I do admit I don't emotionally connect with Arya - my mind tells me "she's pretty awesome!" but my heart is all "meh~" probably for the same reasons that some people can't connect with Sansa, I don't relate to Arya, we're almost polar opposites (can you guess that I am so very Sansa at heart?) - but this doesn't stop me from appreciating her or recognizing her awesomeness.

ETA: why does there need to be a right way? why can't both girls simply be doing their best to uphold their identities and values in a world that is filled with people trying to rob that from them? why does Arya's way being correct automatically disenfranchise Sansa's way and vice versa? I don't understand what you're saying

I guess Im more connected to Arya, though not as much as I am to Sansa. I think its because of her sympathetic situation and her strength (And maybe her chapter in Braavos)

Seasalt cupcakes for all~ Paid with the iron price :devil:

My kind of cupcake :cheers:

[Florina Laufeyson]

At the risk of turning the thread into a pit fight, I'll just say I think it's interesting how despite being disenchanted with knighthood from before, both girls cling to a last hope of sorts. For Arya this last hope is Sandor. When she leaves him to die on the road, she says: "you should've saved my mother, you should've stayed and fight" (or something like that). So even after all she had seen, a part of her still believed in knighthood and the values it stands for. For Sansa, this last hope is Dontos. She trusts him until she realizes all he cared about was money.

Yeah. Its the idea of knighthood and chivalry that is tested in both arcs. (moreso in Sansa's) But yes, fair point. Arya was unable to see the brutal honesty in Sandor whereas Sansa did. Therein lies the difference.

This is an interesting point. I actually see parallels between Sansa trusting Dontos and Dany trusting MMD. Both Sansa and Dany "saved" the other character and consequently believe that they can trust them.

Oooh good catch!

[ARYa_Nym]

Bella is also a Mary Sue. There arent any of those in ASOIAF. (despite how many people think otherwise.)

That doesn't negate my point.

There are tons of other examples I could use but that is one where everyone knows who she is.

There are a lot of characters who are don't have powers and don't fight in other series. I'm not going to like them just because they're "normal". That doesn't automatically make them a good character or someone I enjoy reading about. In contrast I think would be innacurate to assume that those who like Arya do so because they like all characters like that. No, they like her. Maybe for some they like characters who are similar but for many

it's not because she fulfills the little miss badass trope. There are plenty other characters who also fulfill that trope that they might not like.

At the risk of turning the thread into a pit fight, I'll just say I think it's interesting how despite being disenchanted with knighthood from before, both girls cling to a last hope of sorts. For Arya this last hope is Sandor. When she leaves him to die on the road, she says: "you should've saved my mother, you should've stayed and fight" (or something like that). So even after all she had seen, a part of her still believed in knighthood and the values it stands for. For Sansa, this last hope is Dontos. She trusts him until she realizes all he cared about was money.

She doesn't see Sandor as a knight though. She thinks men who don't fight are cowards in general. It's not about how she sees knighthood.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Sansa only starts out naïve in Winterfell. Since Lady died she's not quite as naïve as people think. Not fighting back and rebelling in small ways is very pragmatic and smart. She does dream of handsome chivalrous knights but when Jeyne Poole wants to marry Beric, she's knows it's not going to happen because of their different social status'.

She is idealistic and she wants things to be like songs. I would too! I'm cynical and misanthropic sometimes, but at heart I want things to be like storybooks. It's difficult to understand why people can't just be halfway decent to each other and the fact that they aren't is where the cynicism comes in. It's nice to have a character with the potential to be in a position of power who wants to rule with love. That's how I would try and do it.

[A Man Has Said]

Sansa is a great character not in spite of her starting off her young naiveté, but because of it. It gives her room for growth, and allows her character to develop. And thankfully, we SEE that happening from one of her chapters to the next, all the way through the series.

One thing I liked about her from the get-go was that she was written with special care by GRRM, with a really distinctive voice that is SO different from the male characters, even quite different from Catelyn and Arya (who are the only other female characters in the beginning.) She literally walks into a room and sees it through different eyes than Ned or Jon or her mother or sister would. It's so girly-girl, so tender.

It's wonderful to see her toughen up in some ways but still retain that tenderness, even after being abused by Joffrey and Cersei. The scene where she rebuilds Winterfell out of snow is still one of my favourites in all the books. So hopeful.

[Lala]

That doesn't negate my point.

There are tons of other examples I could use but that is one where everyone knows who she is.

There are a lot of characters who are don't have powers and don't fight in other series. I'm not going to like them just because they're "normal". That doesn't automatically make them a good character or someone I enjoy reading about. In contrast I think would be innacurate to assume that those who like Arya do so because they like all characters like that. No, they like her. Maybe for some they like characters who are similar but for many

it's not because she fulfills the little miss badass trope. There are plenty other characters who also fulfill that trope that they might not like.

She doesn't see Sandor as a knight though. She thinks men who don't fight are cowards in general. It's not about how she sees knighthood.

And we're not asking you to like Sansa. All we ask is that other readers not be dismissive of her simply because she is less outright in her defiance than Arya would have been.

Again, I don't understand why liking Arya and thinking she is a strong character entails thinking Sansa is a weak one and vice versa. You may identify more with Arya's way of thinking, but that doesn't diminish the value of Sansa's way of being.

Talal I'm glad you approve :) I actually want to do a Rethinking Culture thread at some point for the Dothraki and the Ironborn with analyses of the cultures they are based off of but there's too much going on right now that it's on a back back burner (As a Chinese American, I have this love for Mongolian culture, which is why I love the idea of the Dothraki Sea and the Ironborn are basically the Dothraki of the sea!) They don't get enough love :crying:

Florina Also "The Importance of Having Lemons"! Dany's lemon tree and Sansa's lemon cakes~ Their arcs are honestly so much more alike than readers think

[Cyvasse Khal]

I actually was having an argument with a friend the other day who really disliked Sansa with a passion. But even though she is not one of my favourite characters and as a male I have never found her femininity and childish dreams all that relatable, I have come to really respect her because she has done almost everything right to keep herself alive when ever since arriving at KL she has always been a target. She knew she has to say and do the right things to Cersei and Joffrey to keep them happy, she knew there was no point lying to the Tyrells about Joffrey (maybe she sensed the shift in power at KL), after the Purple Wedding she knew all eyes would be on her so she high tailed it outta there, after learning LF was the mastermind behind everything, she wisely stuck with him, even though she most likely dislikes Robert Arryn as much as the readers, she knows she must gain his trust. All of her actions have been measured and well considered, and that is why she is still sitting pretty (no pun intended).

[Morienthar]

That's interesting. She's a pretty great character (and one of my favoured winners besides), but she seems tailor-made to appeal more to women than men, no?

Not trying to stir the gender roles pot or anything, I'm just genuinely curious. I don't see too many outspoken male Sansa fans.

Think you should meet Mladen.

Every girl I've met even the ones who are like Arya in so many ways,Have a bit of Sansa in them,the ability to believe everything will be storybook,picture perfect by the end stuff.

Hell even I think like that sometimes,So in that way yes she is slightly relateable to both Male and Female fans,But I guess the Female fans have more to relate with.

But that doesn't mean I enjoy reading her chapters as much as I enjoy say Brans or Jaimes chapters.

The major reason I started finding her interesting is because of LF's entry into her life.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Arya vs. Sansa is a little like cats vs. dogs to me. Loving one doesn't mean not loving the other. Some like to make it mutually exclusive but I love all four.

[Howling Mad]

Its a sign of GRRM's genius that ASOIAF is filled with enough well written characters that every reader can find someone with whom to identify.