Balon Greyjoy - one of the worst strategic commanders in the history of Westeros

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Balon was a complete moron no question. He attacked the North for personal reasons instead of strategic ones and his men paid the price for it.

He blamed the Starks for the deaths of his first two sons an the imprisonment of his last remaining son. It was own damn fault for starting the rebellion in the first place. Robert should have execute him and all the Greyjoys above the age of 18.

[C0bR]

His grudge against the Starks is just as ridiculous as Lady Dustin's is.

Rodrik Greyjoy was killed by Jason Mallister at Seagard in Riverlands before Ned even set his foot out of Winterfell.

His next son was killed while defending Pyke. We don't know by whom and I doubt Balon knowing as well.

Why doesn't he resent Lannisters too? Tywin surely had forces there and they were doing Tywin-esque stuff as a return for the slap in the face Tywin got in the burning in Lannisport. He could have burn down the Casterly Rock now if he allied himself with Robb.

Why don't he resent Baratheons and Redwynes whose fleets were the main driving force behind putting the Rebellion to an end? He could have gone against those and burn the ships of Redwyne fleet if he allied himself with Robb and reclaim the glory of the Iron Fleet by that.

Taking Theon away from him was hardly Ned's fault. What if Robert took him to KL instead? He could hardly blame Ned for that, but he still did when Robert ordered him to take him to Winterfell. If he did not become a bitter man and wasn't stupid, he could have still seen to his upbringing. Nobody ever banned Balon from visiting his son.

[Chaircat Meow]

Balon didn't attack the north because of a 'grudge.' He did it because he felt it was the most inviting target.

The reason people feel he had a peculiar grudge against Ned is based on a misunderstanding as to what is going on when Theon returns to Pyke. Aeron and Balon are concerned (rightly) that 10 years with the Starks has made Theon closer to their old enemies than he is to them. He might be a Stark now, not a Greyjoy. They would feel the same if he had been 'warded' by Stannis or Tywin. They keep saying, 'we'll see,' when Theon proclaims himself the heir. Then he decides to call Robb Stark a 'brother,' and that sets Balon off. His knows his son is a Stark now, and he doesn't want anything to do with him as a result. Asha is going to have to be the heir instead. Balon doesn't really think Ned killed his sons (I am amazed at how many readers take that comment literally), he just meant Ned was in the enemy army that defeated the ironborn and led to the death of Theon's brothers. When Theon indicates he feels affinity to the Starks Balon throws the death of his real brothers in his face in the harshest possible way. If Theon had been sent to Dragonstone with Stannis Balon would also be just as angry with him if he called Shireen sister. It wouldn't have prompted him to attack Dragonstone though. The anger at Theon is not connected to Balon's intended victim in any straightforward way.

He rejected Robb's offer because he thought it was a pile of crap and he'd be better off raiding and conquering the north. It is honestly as simple as that.

[DaarioBigalowTyroshiGigolo]

This is the second topic in as many of days I've seen about the questionable intellect of Balon Greyjoy. So I'll just repeat what I posted in the other thread.

Balon Greyjoy is so stupid that if he were to walk the streets of King's Landing people would stop and say "Gods be good that is one dumb son of a bitch!"

[juanml82]

He rebelled against Robert because he was a drunk usurper who was running the kingdom into huge debts, he didn't think all the lords would side with Robert, unfortunately for Balon they did. He was probably too naive when it came to the battle of the ships, they destroyed the Lannister fleet thanks to Euron and Victarion but they didn't account for Stannis Baratheon.

WOT5K was smart, in hindsight but not so much at the time. Had he attacked the Westerlands, after the Red Wedding he would be left to face the wrath of Tywin Lannister on his own with the backing of highgarden, effectively ending the greyjoy line. The Starks have a small navy, and probably couldn't even invade the Iron Islands, so in the WOT5K he was smart.

But he was going to face the wrath of Tywin Lannister anyway because whoever would end up sitting in the Iron Throne was not going to allow the Iron Islands to secede. So, if he wanted to be a king, he had to side with Robb Stark to help fracture the realm apart - and maybe send someone to test the Martells. If he wanted to raid, he had to declare for Renly and plunder the gold rich Westerlands. If he was too much of a coward for that, don't declare himself king but raid the North anyway. And once the dust settles, declare for whoever holds the Throne and ask recognition for his conquest.

[Frey Pie]

As a commander of men, strategically I don't think wev seen anyone as clearly lacking as Balon. Tactically he ain't so bad

[Jedi Reed]

I don't get why he would rather make an enemy of the Starks than the Lannisters. I mean, his first move in his previous war was to attack Lannisport and burn down the Lannister fleet. He clearly slighted Tywin back then.

Like Stan the Man said, the sinking of the Lannister fleet was a military tactic, less a personal grudge. I think Balon's feelings towards the Starks contributed towards his attacks on the North, but he also assumed it to be an easier target. And he gambled rightly on the outcome - the Starks lost.

Also, he's a prickly, curmudgeon old man who lets past sleights and perceived notions of what the Iron born used to be dictate his military strategy. His campaign was always doomed for failure. Euron and Asha both saw that.

[juanml82]

The Starks lost, but we still have to see the Ironborn longboats deal with the Redwyne Fleet, which is coming to them, while the Greyjoys got nothing of worth out of their conquest of the North.

And it's true the Redwynes are coming for them because Euron is attacking the Reach, but even if he didn't, the Iron Throne was going to go after the Greyjoys anyway.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

As far as the Wo5K goes, in my most recent re-read it struck me as perhaps noteworthy that Balon seems to at least entertain Robb's letter until the language that makes it sound like Robb would be "giving" Balon his crown hits him. While I know he already had plans on the North, I can't help but wonder whether better wording might have won Balon over.

I've wondered so often about this letter and the possible other outcomes, if Robb used a different language.

edit:

Also, it does not make any sense, not to align with Robb.

He had the forces of the North and the Riverlands and at that point potentially the Vale. Those combined with the Ironfleet would have trumped the other contestants in the Wot5k.

Those were Westerlands + Crown lands vs. Stormlands + the Reach vs Stannis

None of which, would have allowed Balon to keep his crown if they won.

Robb was the only one who would have acknowledged him as king and have given him a fighting chance.

Strategically his decision borders retardness to a point, where I'm completely astonished, that Balon was able to wipe his own arse...

[Victor227]

He had his own logic, and from certain angles it makes sense.

In the case of the Greyjoy rebellion, the Ironborn had one of the strongest fleets in the realm, meaning that if they could keep naval superiority (and lets face it, what Ironborn would say something else was possible?) They could resist invasion indefinitely. That makes excellent sense. A bad storm or an interception and the stunning victory of the Greyjoy Rebellion by Robert becomes an ignominious defeat. Small nations have defended themselves from big ones quite handily when a body of water separates their armies.

What's more, King Robert was an unknown quantity at the time. No one knew how the realm would withstand another conflict. He had the alliances, but did he have the power to get Westeros to go against the Iron Fleet for control of a few rocks? He did underestimate Robert and his ability to win friendship and loyalty (and by all accounts, Robert was stunning at it), but of course, that same quality that he underestimated ensured his own survival in bending the knee.

He opened the war with a crippling blow to a major enemy fleet. He had the strategy well in hand. Stannis' victory over the Iron Fleet was the only thing that separated the Greyjoys from being the dominant power of the war. After all, independence isn't about landing ashore and crushing every army of the realm, it's holding your own until they give up on stopping you, which becomes an increasingly attractive proposition when you make it impossible to land troops.

In terms of the War of Five Kings. The Westerlands were a tempting target to be certain, but even during the Greyjoy Rebellion, they never -sacked- Lannisport. It would have been a substantial investment, and what Balon Greyjoy wasn't looking for was just loot, he wanted to take the opportunity to carve an empire. The North was the perfect target. The lords were gone, most of their best were gone, and there was a distinct vulnerability. Robb was a child, a child with a major victory and a crown on his head, but a child nonetheless, and no one in Tywin Lannister's life had ever gotten ahead by betting against him. He picked his opponent, the one he thought would be easiest to knock down and keep down, and went for it.

Balon Greyjoy picked hard fights, and some of his assumptions didn't pan out. But they weren't outright stupid ideas.

Ironically, his death was the only thing that saved Roose Bolton from being stuck below the Neck while Stannis scooped up Winterfell and the rest of the North, as Victarion effectively abandoned the conquest, and even the dregs left at Moat Cailin were capable of inflicting severe damage in spite of their ridiculously poor state.

[The Frosted King]

He had his own logic, and from certain angles it makes sense.

In the case of the Greyjoy rebellion, the Ironborn had one of the strongest fleets in the realm, meaning that if they could keep naval superiority (and lets face it, what Ironborn would say something else was possible?) They could resist invasion indefinitely. That makes excellent sense. A bad storm or an interception and the stunning victory of the Greyjoy Rebellion by Robert becomes an ignominious defeat. Small nations have defended themselves from big ones quite handily when a body of water separates their armies.

What's more, King Robert was an unknown quantity at the time. No one knew how the realm would withstand another conflict. He had the alliances, but did he have the power to get Westeros to go against the Iron Fleet for control of a few rocks? He did underestimate Robert and his ability to win friendship and loyalty (and by all accounts, Robert was stunning at it), but of course, that same quality that he underestimated ensured his own survival in bending the knee.

He opened the war with a crippling blow to a major enemy fleet. He had the strategy well in hand. Stannis' victory over the Iron Fleet was the only thing that separated the Greyjoys from being the dominant power of the war. After all, independence isn't about landing ashore and crushing every army of the realm, it's holding your own until they give up on stopping you, which becomes an increasingly attractive proposition when you make it impossible to land troops.

In terms of the War of Five Kings. The Westerlands were a tempting target to be certain, but even during the Greyjoy Rebellion, they never -sacked- Lannisport. It would have been a substantial investment, and what Balon Greyjoy wasn't looking for was just loot, he wanted to take the opportunity to carve an empire. The North was the perfect target. The lords were gone, most of their best were gone, and there was a distinct vulnerability. Robb was a child, a child with a major victory and a crown on his head, but a child nonetheless, and no one in Tywin Lannister's life had ever gotten ahead by betting against him. He picked his opponent, the one he thought would be easiest to knock down and keep down, and went for it.

Balon Greyjoy picked hard fights, and some of his assumptions didn't pan out. But they weren't outright stupid ideas.

Ironically, his death was the only thing that saved Roose Bolton from being stuck below the Neck while Stannis scooped up Winterfell and the rest of the North, as Victarion effectively abandoned the conquest, and even the dregs left at Moat Cailin were capable of inflicting severe damage in spite of their ridiculously poor state.

How was he going to carve out an empire, when he hastens his own defeat by hobbling the Stark cause, which operates as a shield of sorts since as long as Robb looms strongly over the south, defeating Balon must wait?

If he takes the north, this now means he must contend with the south once he's helped topple Robb, and a populace that hates him and wants him gone.

How was it not outright stupidity to choose certain defeat, rather than a tenous victory?

The throne won't allow a backwater pirate to claim half the realm, just like said pirate wouldn't be suffered to hold the richest part of the realm.

All he had truly available with his resources was raiding and plundering.

With that mo, what target would you recommend, if you must do something?

[WakeTheDragon]

Balon was stubborn, proud, and held a grudge against the Starks, but he still believed in the Old Way. When Theon brought the message, he knew Robb was in the Riverlands and the North was ripe for the taking. Strategically I think his attack was pretty sound, take Moat Cailin, Torrhen's square and Deepwood. As others have said these are 3 pretty good chokepoints to hold off an attack from the south, and more importantly accesible by the sea, where the Ironborn's strength comes from. Theon took WF for his own reasons, Balon never ordered to do it, because he knew he wouldn't be able to hold it.

How could he have possibly expected to take and hold the North? The other 6 kingdoms couldn't combine to hold the north. It's like Russia which was the downfall of both Boneparte and Hitler. Huge with harsh conditions. Ridiculous move. Balon was an idiot but I do respect the grey joys and how they don't give a crap about anyone.