Offical Court of Law v 15 Jon Snow

[SeanF]

Welcome to the 15th instalment of the “Official Court of Law” for this board. In this thread we will debate and pass judgement on character crimes. As judges we bear a burden of upholding the integrity of our court, so being impartial is imperative. Keep all arguments in a legal context that suit the standards of this court. All posters are welcome to make their case, at the end of your argument pass your judgement and sentence!!!

The President of the Court, Lion of Judah, has been summoned to other duties, and I shall be taking his place pro-tem.

The rules: Every poster has one vote (per charge) of guilt or innocence.

**For a guilty verdict, your options are:

Death by sword. (Clean and quick)

Death by hanging (Not so clean and quick).

Monetary fine

Exile

Stripped of land/title.

Prison sentence

Community Service

Only the nominated character will be discussed, however, you can indict characters you also find culpable, as part of your ruling, and they can be added to the docket.

**Votes can be changed before they are counted, but do so in your original post.

Posters can just cast a vote, which is your right, but try to state a case as well. Your opinion actually matters and it may serve to change the vote of another judge.

*Do not take it personally if your favourite character is being torn to pieces. Everyone is fair game.

****If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.****

NB. Following representations by numerous distinguished jurists, Death by flaying or burning alive will no longer be available as a sentence. However, Death by hanging is now an option, as is community service (the judge should state what form of community service he/she considers appropriate). The Wall has been deleted as a possible sentence in this case, as it would be superfluous.

**If you find the character innocent, simply state innocent or Not Guilty after your argument.

As for as evidence that can be submitted, posters can submit any argument they deem relevant. However we cannot use any pardons (save in one instance) or prior convictions as evidence in the matter. Our court will not recognize the judgement of any other court or ruling body. In the event that a defendant is charged with an offence against another character, judges are entitled (but not obliged) to find that defendant Not Guilty, if the latter has pardoned or forgiven them.

**You can also vote for charges to be dismissed (majority rule). Any vote to dismiss charges will be treated as an acquittal, and be added to any verdicts of Not Guilty/Innocent.

**At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Majority rules. In the event that no punishment commands a majority, then the Court will reach a consensus between the various options put forward.

The charges are outlined in the next post

[SeanF]

1. Treason

The Defendant is charged with three counts of treason:-

1.1 The Defendant permitted wildlings to enter South of the Wall, in violation of his duties to the Realm;

1.2 The Defendant attempted to lead an army of wildlings against Lord Roose Bolton, lawfully appointed Warden of the North, in order to avenge the supposed death of Lord Stannis Baratheon, and to slay his natural son, Lord Ramsay Bolton;

1.3 The Defendant assisted Lord Stannis Baratheon to wage war against Lord Roose Bolton, by providing him with military advice, and his army with accommodation and supplies.

2. Oathbreaking

The Defendant is charged with three counts of Oathbreaking:-

2.1 The Defendant breached his pledge of neutrality, by assisting Lord Stannis as set out in charge 1.2, and by attempting to march on Winterfell, as set out in charge 1.3;

2.2 The Defendant breached his oath of chastity by committing acts of fornication with the wildling woman, Ygritte.

2.3 The Defendant breached his pledge of neutrality by attempting to kidnap Jeyne Poole (alias “Arya Stark”) the wife of Lord Ramsay Bolton;

3. Mutiny

The Defendant is charged with three counts of Mutiny:-

3.1 The Defendant disobeyed an order to execute the wildling woman, Ygritte, given by his superior officer, Qhorin Halfhand;

3.2 The Defendant attempted to desert his post, by riding South to join Robb Stark;

3.3 The Defendant attempted to strike his superior officer, Ser Alliser Thorne, upon hearing of the arrest of his natural father, Lord Eddard Stark;

4. Murder

The Defendant slew Lord Janos Slynt without trial.

[Dornish Whine]

I would move to dismiss this case as the Crown holds no jurisdiction on the men of the Night's Watch. It is for the leaders of the Watch to oversee their ranks, led of course by their Lord Commander. This court does not hold the authority to remove Jon Snow from the Nights Watch in order to sentence him for any of these crimes.

However, if I we are required to pass judgement I would lay my decision as thus; Guilty on all counts, save Murder. As Lord Commander, Jon Snow was within his rights to deal with a traitor amongst his ranks in any way he saw fit.

Sentence - Send him to the Wall.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

On te charges of treason I find him not guilty on all counts

1.1- Not Guilty on account it was his right as LC to take assistance from the Wildling to help defend the realm from the other

1.2.- Not Guilty- he attempted to march on The Boltons because he got a letter from Ramsay Bolton threatening to attack him an the NW. As LC it was his duty to protect the NW at any cost.

1.3.- Not Guilty- He didn't really have much options at this point, he couldn't kick Stannis and his forces out he didn't have the power.

On the charges of oathbreaking I find him not guilty on all counts

2.1- Not Guilty

2.2- Not Guilty- he did so under orders from a superior officer to use any means at his disposal to gain te Wildlings confidence and infiltrate their military hierarchy. Sleeping with Ygritte was part of that.

2.3- Not guilty- Melesandra took the initiative and sent Mance Rayder to do it, once he found out about it he is not obligate to stop it or interfere, as it a matter of political power

On the charges of mutiny I find the defendant

3.1. Guilty- he failed to follow Qhorins orders and execute Ygritte

3.2 Not guilty- he didn't get very far and he came back of his own free will and has shown absolute loyalty to the NW

3.3 Guilty- he only attacked when his superior Ser Allister Thorne provoked him. Punishment should be given accordingly

On the charges of murder I find the defendant not guilty

4.1 Not guilty- Janos Slynt was disobeying direct orders from his commanding officer, he disrespected his superior officer, Lord Commander Jon Snow was well within his rights to execute him

[SeanF]

The Court rejects the motion to dismiss the charges. Any convictions a man may have incurred prior to joining the Night's Watch are deemed spent when he joins the institution. But, he is still subject to the law as a member of the Night's Watch.

[Four-Eyed Crow]

I think it's pretty difficult, at least in the U.S., to prosecute a dead man. Even if alive, he is medically incompetent to stand trial.

That being said,

1.1: I would have to see the statute prohibiting the induction of new citizens into the realm from beyond the wall. If there is none, not guilty.

1.2: I don't think the evidence supports that his motivation had anything to do with Stannis. I think it had to do with the threat against his life. As phrased, I don't think think the evidence supports this count. I would grant defense's motion to strike for legal insufficiency of the evidence.

1.3: Guilty.

2.1: I don't think this stands as an independent charge. The Night's Watch laws control its neutrality, not the oath itself. However, if the Court is persuaded as a matter of law that taking part in the disputes of the realm constitutes oathbreaking, then guilty.

2.2: Repeatedly guilty.

2.3: Again, whether this is oathbreaking depends on whether taking part in the quarrels of the realm is oathbreaking. Also, no attempt was made, and LC Snow's intention regarding Poole was unclear at the time of his conspiracy to march south. Not guilty.

3.1: Guilty.

3.2: Not guilty. He aborted his attempt of his own volition after being persuaded by friends not to go through with it. Mere intent does not suffice for a conviction here. No bad act was accomplished.

3.3: According to the evidence adduced at trial, no striking was completed. As such the defendant is guilty of the tort of assault, but not of battery. The charge is struck as legally insufficient.

4.1: Not guilty. LC Snow was well within his purview as LC to punish an active, open, notorious mutineer with a sentence including death.

[alienarea]

Guilty - death by stabbing

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

OMG really Sean? Here we go:

Count 1.1-Dismissed. This is not technically against the law as it was done. Also since it was done with the blessing of Stannis Baratheon arguably the rightful King at the time, no charge can stand.

Count 1.2-Not guilty. There was a direct threat against the Night's Watch & the legality of the Bolton's position is null due to the fact that the "King" that appointed him is a pretender.

Count 1.3-Dismissed. The actions of the Bolton's were a danger to a number of people, & the NW is sworn to defend the realms of men.

Count 2.1-Dismissed. See 1.2 & 1.3.

Count 2.2-Dismissed. He was acting under the orders of Qhorin Halfhand his superior at the time.

Count 2.3-Not guilty. He did not send them the Red Woman did.

Count 3.1-Guilty, but charges reduced as per QH's statement. Vacated a Dismissal will be placed instead.

Count 3.2-Dismissed. Jon Snow did turn around, & was forgiven by Lord Commander Morment.

Count 3.3-Dismissed. Jon Snow was already punished for the offense, & was provoked.

Count 4-Dismissed. Snow was acting within his authority as Lord Commander.

(A lot of people posted while I was writing this.)

[StarksOfWinterfell]

3.1 dismissed. Qhorin never commanded Jon to execute Ygritte. Qhorin just told Jon to do what "needs to be done".

[RKOpanther]

Not guilty on all accounts

The Nights Watch needs to change and everything Jon did (except maybe fornification) was his attempt at this.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

3.1 dismissed. Qhorin never commanded Jon to execute Ygritte. Qhorin just told Jon to do what "needs to be done".

I would like to amend my ruling on this charge because of this! He is right!

[Four-Eyed Crow]

I recommend 20 hours community service, with a suspended sentence of the entire 20 hours on condition that he save the world from evil wights and Danaerys. Upon completion of his sentence and conditions, I recommend his removal from the Night's Watch, to be replaced by Edd Tollett.

[aceluby]

1.1 - Not guilty, his duty is to the realms of men and wildlings are men

1.2 - Dismissed, not treason, it's oathbreaking

1.3 - Guilty

2.1 - Guilty

2.2 - Not guilty, he was following orders

2.3 - Not guilty, wildlings technically did that under the advice of Mel

3.1 - Dismissed

3.2 - Dismissed

3.3 - Dismissed

4 - Dismissed

[Groat]

1.1 Dismissed. Stannis is the rightful king of Westeros, and as such Stannis is the sole person with the right to allow a migration of a people onto his kingdom. This was the king's decision and Jon bears no responsibility for it.

1.2 Not Guilty. As others have gone into great detail, Lord Snow was following the spirit of his oath, rather than the letter, in an attempt to create a unified North to better prepare for the real threat that the NW is supposed to be the shield for.

1.3 Dismissed. As Jon himself says, words are not swords. (But swords are certainly swords so you might have better luck with the arming Stannis's army angle)

2.1 Dismissed. Every predecessor Lord Commander of the NW has never been neutral. Mormont housed Tyrion Lannister and treated him like royalty. All Lord Commanders are involved with the politics of the realm to some degree, and Jon would be expected to continue this tradition.

2.2 Not Guilty. The oath does not specify celibacy, it only forbids reproduction. Since Jon did not have a child, he did not break the oath.

2.3 Dismissed. This act was done by a private citizen, Melisandre of Asshai, who is under Stannis Baratheon's authority. Jon has no power to either give or withold consent to this mission, and bears no responsibility for it.

3.1 Guilty. Jon disobeyed a direct order. This crime has already been confessed to, and the commanding officer (Qhorin Halfhand) has dealt out the punishment. Under protection of Double Jeperady, Jon cannot be charged for this crime a second time.

3.2 Guilty. Jon attempted to flee his position. This crime has already been confessed to, and the commanding officer (Lord Commander Mormont) has dealt out the punishment. Under protection of Double Jeperady, Jon cannot be charged for this crime a second time.

3.3 Guilty. Jon attempted to assault Alliser Thorne. This crime has already been confessed to, and the commanding officer (Lord Commander Mormont) has dealt out the punishment. Under protection of Double Jeperady, Jon cannot be charged for this crime a second time.

4.1 Dismissed. As Lord Commander of the NW, Jon is within his rights as acting Lord to commence judgement on criminals. Janos Slynt committed the crime of disobeying an order, which Jon found him guilty of. As Lord, Jon has every right to determine the manner of punishment, and execution is lawfully allowed under these circumstances.

[SeanF]

I think it's pretty difficult, at least in the U.S., to prosecute a dead man. Even if alive, he is medically incompetent to stand trial.

In the author's words "You think he's dead do you."

[Four-Eyed Crow]

In the author's words "You think he's dead do you."

As I said, even if alive, he is probably incompetent to stand trial.

[juanml82]

1. Treason

The Defendant is charged with three counts of treason:-

1.1 The Defendant permitted wildlings to enter South of the Wall, in violation of his duties to the Realm;

Charge dismissed. There is no law forbidding the settlement of wildlings south of the Wall, as stated in the case Robb Stark vs. Osha

1.2 The Defendant attempted to lead an army of wildlings against Lord Roose Bolton, lawfully appointed Warden of the North, in order to avenge the supposed death of Lord Stannis Baratheon, and to slay his natural son, Lord Ramsay Bolton;

Charge dismissed. Ramsay Bolton, natural born son of the Warden of the North, threatened an attack on a Brother of the Night's Watch if Jon didn't comply with conditions he can't comply. As such, his actions are a defence of the Night's Watch and, by extension, the Realm.

1.3 The Defendant assisted Lord Stannis Baratheon to wage war against Lord Roose Bolton, by providing him with military advice, and his army with accommodation and supplies.

Not Guilty. The accused support of Lord Stannis Baratheon is a breach in the Night's Watch neutrality. However, Stannis specifically threatened the Night's Watch and asked conditions Jon Snow could comply to. Since the Night's Watch doesn't have the men to defeat Stannis' men in battle, the Lord Commander actions successfully defended the Night's Watch and, by extension the Realm.

2. Oathbreaking

The Defendant is charged with three counts of Oathbreaking:-

2.1 The Defendant breached his pledge of neutrality, by assisting Lord Stannis as set out in charge 1.2, and by attempting to march on Winterfell, as set out in charge 1.3;

Not guilty, as stated in charges 1.2 and 1.3

2.2 The Defendant breached his oath of chastity by committing acts of fornication with the wildling woman, Ygritte.

Charge dismissed. The oath is of celibacy, not chastity.

2.3 The Defendant breached his pledge of neutrality by attempting to kidnap Jeyne Poole (alias “Arya Stark”) the wife of Lord Ramsay Bolton;

Not guilty. The kidnapping was planned and executed by Melissandre of Asshai and there is no evidence Jon would hold Jeyne Poole against her will if she wanted to return to her husband. A charge should be brought forward for letting a known deserter (Mance Rayder) free, but it's not a juror's task to bring forth additional charges against the accused.

3. Mutiny

The Defendant is charged with three counts of Mutiny:-

3.1 The Defendant disobeyed an order to execute the wildling woman, Ygritte, given by his superior officer, Qhorin Halfhand;

Not guilty. The order was not to execute her

3.2 The Defendant attempted to desert his post, by riding South to join Robb Stark;

Not guilty. Attempts of desertion were tolerated by his superior officer, Lord Commander Mormont.

3.3 The Defendant attempted to strike his superior officer, Ser Alliser Thorne, upon hearing of the arrest of his natural father, Lord Eddard Stark;

Guilty.

4. Murder

The Defendant slew Lord Janos Slynt without trial.

Charge dismissed. Janos Slynt is no lord and was summarily executed for disobeying orders.

This juror considers Jon Snow guilty on one charge of mutiny and sentences him to community service, tasking him to clean up the trash at Winterfell.

This juror also considers House Bolton trash.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

dismiss this case as the Crown holds no jurisdiction on the men of the Night's Watch.

this

[caravaggio]

If it pleases the court I would like to enter the vows of the Night's Watch into evidence.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

As you can see many of the charges against Lord Commander Snow are not violations of his vow.

1. Treason

The Defendant is charged with three counts of treason:-

1.1 The Defendant permitted wildlings to enter South of the Wall, in violation of his duties to the Realm;

Nothing in the defendent's vow charges him with keeping his fellow humans north of the Wall.

1.2 The Defendant attempted to lead an army of wildlings against Lord Roose Bolton, lawfully appointed Warden of the North, in order to avenge the supposed death of Lord Stannis Baratheon, and to slay his natural son, Lord Ramsay Bolton;

While common practice amongst the Watch to not interfere with the politics of the Realm there is no part of the vow the expressly forbids it and the defendant was acting in the interest of the Watch.

1.3 The Defendant assisted Lord Stannis Baratheon to wage war against Lord Roose Bolton, by providing him with military advice, and his army with accommodation and supplies.

And where in the vows does it state the Watch may not assist an ally in their fight?

2. Oathbreaking

The Defendant is charged with three counts of Oathbreaking:-

2.1 The Defendant breached his pledge of neutrality, by assisting Lord Stannis as set out in charge 1.2, and by attempting to march on Winterfell, as set out in charge 1.3;

As outlined above, there is no pledge of neutrality in the vows.

2.2 The Defendant breached his oath of chastity by committing acts of fornication with the wildling woman, Ygritte.

There is no vow of chastity, only a vow that members shall not have children which Lord Commander Snow did not do.

2.3 The Defendant breached his pledge of neutrality by attempting to kidnap Jeyne Poole (alias “Arya Stark”) the wife of Lord Ramsay Bolton;

There is no vow which states a member of the Night's Watch may not assist a civilian who asks for help.

3. Mutiny

The Defendant is charged with three counts of Mutiny:-

3.1 The Defendant disobeyed an order to execute the wildling woman, Ygritte, given by his superior officer, Qhorin Halfhand;

Ranger Qhorin Halfhand gave no such order. He instructed then Steward Snow to do what must be done, Steward Snow acted accordingly.

3.2 The Defendant attempted to desert his post, by riding South to join Robb Stark;

There is no vow against riding south. Then Steward Snow reported back to Lord Commander Mormont and continued his service.

3.3 The Defendant attempted to strike his superior officer, Ser Alliser Thorne, upon hearing of the arrest of his natural father, Lord Eddard Stark;

There is no vow or law pertaining to striking a fellow member of the Watch. Authority lies with the Lord Commander and the Lord Commander at the time dealt with the incident appropriately.

4. Murder

The Defendant slew Lord Janos Slynt without trial.

Janos Slynt disobeyed a direct order from his Lord Commander, the defendant, Lord Commander Snow and therefore his life was forfeit.

As you can see, a verdict of not guilty on all counts is the only reasonable verdict.

[Dan slayer of hot pies]

not guilty on all counts