Rethinking Romance: Love Stories of ASOIAF

[DogLover]

Doglover

You're going to love the White Queen it was excellent. or at least I thought so. It was on over here over the summer and I really enjoyed it.

I read the book of the White Queen, which I found okay but not great.

I thought her best story was the Boleyn Inheritance.

I read The Other Boleyn Girl, which I found mildly entertaining, The Kingmaker's Daughter, which I hated, and attempted to read The Lady of the Rivers, but couldn't suffer past the first few chapters. I considered reading the White Queen, but I'll pass for now. Maybe the mini-drama will inspire me to read it after all.

Another similarity between the story of Robb and Jeyne and Edward IV and Elizabeth is the ambition the Westerling/Spicers and Woodvilles share. As SeanF mentioned, Jeyne's mother, Sybel Spicer, plotted against the Starks for her own family's political gain. And the Woodvilles were reputed to be greedy, ambitious, and arrogant. However, instead of remaining loyal to House Lancaster, the Woodvilles were willing to break their alliance to support House York which greatly benefitted them, though the Woodvilles suffered their own casualties, as Elizabeth's father and two brothers were executed. And while Jeyne appears to be a pawn in her family's scheming, Elizabeth was a cunning player in her own right, winning her hand against Edward, settling for no less than marriage (Anne Boleyn comes to mind). Elizabeth not only survived her husband's tumultuous reign, but she outlived Richard III, as well. Jeyne's own future and the future of her family appear to be far more bleak.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Oh I havn't read any of her books. But a friend recommended the tv series and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Being a Yorkshire lass it was hard for me not to be rooting for Richard though lol.

I do wonder what Jeyne's role may be later on. Didn't GRRM recently say he's not done with her yet?

[EmmaoftheCanals]

Oh I havn't read any of her books. But a friend recommended the tv series and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Being a Yorkshire lass it was hard for me not to be rooting for Richard though lol.

I do wonder what Jeyne's role may be later on. Didn't GRRM recently say he's not done with her yet?

I think that was in relation to the show. Jeyne/Talisa dies at the RW, but in the books he's not done with her yet at that point. But I could have interpreted that wrongly of course.

But, I am also very curious about what is going to happen to her...

[DogLover]

I do wonder what Jeyne's role may be later on. Didn't GRRM recently say he's not done with her yet?

I think that was in relation to the show. Jeyne/Talisa dies at the RW, but in the books he's not done with her yet at that point. But I could have interpreted that wrongly of course.

But, I am also very curious about what is going to happen to her...

I think Jeyne is too much of a loose end not to tie up. I'd be surprised if she's just swept under the rug. I'm still not sure what to make of the "Jeyne" Jaime meets. Was it actually Jeyne, or did the real Jeyne escape with the Blackfish? I do hope she isn't pregnant, as I want one of the Stark siblings to claim Winterfell.

(I really need to add Jaime's POV to the summary.)

[SeanF]

I hope for Jeyne's own sake she isn't pregnant, as she and the child would likely be killed.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I hope she is not pregnant too, I'm thinking it may be more along the lines of a political marriage.

[Elba the Intoner]

Nice summary of Robb and Jeyne DogLover :thumbsup: Jeyne coming to see Robb off three times always stood out to me. At first I just thought, "oh, young love". It's so passionate and there are also hints that it is going to have a tragic end as it has a very Romeo and Juliet quality to me. Though I don't doubt that Robb and Jeyne truly loved each other and I don't mean to downplay it, there is something else to consider. Around the time of the conversation with Tywin, Kevan and Tyrion, we also hear a little bit about the Spicer family, when Kevan mentions that when Lord Westerling married a Spicer it was way beneath him or something to that effect (don't have the book in front of me atm) and he brought down the status of his family by marrying her. Then we find out that Jeyne's maternal grandmother (ie the Spicer side of the family) was Maggy the Frog and knows some magic. So, what I am wondering is if some kind of "love potion" magic was involved which could also explain Jeyne's almost obsessive emotional state. Jeyne's mother might have learned a thing or two from her own mother on how to get a man to fall in love and marry you.

ETA I have also been watching The White Queen which is airing here right now (just watched the episode where Richard and Anne get married). I like it and even though it is "historical fiction" it has given me a background in the War of the Roses which I really knew very little about. I definitely noticed the Robb Jeyne parallel with the real life Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville.

[Ygrain]

Nice summary of Robb and Jeyne DogLover :thumbsup: Jeyne coming to see Robb off three times always stood out to me. At first I just thought, "oh, young love". It's so passionate and there are also hints that it is going to have a tragic end as it has a very Romeo and Juliet quality to me. Though I don't doubt that Robb and Jeyne truly loved each other and I don't mean to downplay it, there is something else to consider. Around the time of the conversation with Tywin, Kevan and Tyrion, we also hear a little bit about the Spicer family, when Kevan mentions that when Lord Westerling married a Spicer it was way beneath him or something to that effect (don't have the book in front of me atm) and he brought down the status of his family by marrying her. Then we find out that Jeyne's maternal grandmother (ie the Spicer side of the family) was Maggy the Frog and knows some magic. So, what I am wondering is if some kind of "love potion" magic was involved which could also explain Jeyne's almost obsessive emotional state. Jeyne's mother might have learned a thing or two from her own mother on how to get a man to fall in love and marry you.

In this respect, I've always found Tywin's remark how Jeyne is her mother's daughter rather ominous. However, even if Jeyne might have been part of some scheme to seduce Robb, I believe that at least by the end, her feelings for him were genuine.

[Elba the Intoner]

In this respect, I've always found Tywin's remark how Jeyne is her mother's daughter rather ominous. However, even if Jeyne might have been part of some scheme to seduce Robb, I believe that at least by the end, her feelings for him were genuine.

Yeah that's true and I agree. I guess it could go either way. My line of thinking is that of some love potion was involved then it was used on both Jeyne and Robb unknowingly because it does seem that Jeyne truly loved Robb. The line about Jayne being her mother's daughter could be ominous though hinting that she was in on it, or it could just be a hint that Jeyne reached for a husband whose station was way higher than herself as her mother did.

[Le Cygne]

Enjoyed the reading, DogLover and SeanF! :)

Count me as another Talisa hater, groan. I liked Jeyne, though.

And Jamie notes she has torn her clothing with grief and refuses to give up the crown he gave her.

We were thinking along the same lines. I think Jeyne did love Robb, Jaime's observations were revealing (that horrible mother of hers):

“She would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her, and when I tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me.”

“It was mine.” Jeyne sobbed. “You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him.”...

Jeyne never saw him at all. The widow rode with downcast eyes, huddled beneath a hooded cloak. Underneath its heavy folds, her clothes were finely made, but torn. She ripped them herself, as a mark of mourning, Jaime realized. That could not have pleased her mother.

[DogLover]

Jaime's POV has been added to the summary.

I hope for Jeyne's own sake she isn't pregnant, as she and the child would likely be killed.

I feel selfish and callous for only considering the Stark siblings. :blushing: Of course, if the girl who Jaime met is the real Jeyne, her offspring would most likely be killed. I guess even though I already said I'm pretty much up in the air as to whether this is the real Jeyne, I've been more inclined to think she escaped with the Blackfish. However, after rereading the Jaime POV, the girl's grief seems to be genuine. But the awkwardness and the hips... :dunno:

Nice summary of Robb and Jeyne DogLover :thumbsup: Jeyne coming to see Robb off three times always stood out to me. At first I just thought, "oh, young love". It's so passionate and there are also hints that it is going to have a tragic end as it has a very Romeo and Juliet quality to me. Though I don't doubt that Robb and Jeyne truly loved each other and I don't mean to downplay it, there is something else to consider. Around the time of the conversation with Tywin, Kevan and Tyrion, we also hear a little bit about the Spicer family, when Kevan mentions that when Lord Westerling married a Spicer it was way beneath him or something to that effect (don't have the book in front of me atm) and he brought down the status of his family by marrying her. Then we find out that Jeyne's maternal grandmother (ie the Spicer side of the family) was Maggy the Frog and knows some magic. So, what I am wondering is if some kind of "love potion" magic was involved which could also explain Jeyne's almost obsessive emotional state. Jeyne's mother might have learned a thing or two from her own mother on how to get a man to fall in love and marry you.

The potion!! I completely forgot about this theory! Considering Maggy the Frog is Sybell's grandmother, this certainly lends it credibility.

[a free shadow]

I tip my wolf helm

*Snatches the wolf helm and takes off*

***

As for the Robb/Jeyne, I think I disagree that Robb was in love with her. When reading the story, I felt that it was less about love, than about a wish to have more peace in his life. I believe he married her to be at peace with himself and later enjoyed her company as the most peaceful and happy part of his new life, where he has just lost his father, his brothers, his home and was leading an army to uncertain ends.

I think that if some circumstances prevented him from marrying her in the Crag, he might have thought of her, wondered about her, felt quilty, but not actually missed her afterwards.

I am not quiet sure as well, if Jeyne loved Robb, even if my best guess would be that she might have, in the end. Especially when she lost him. But I somehow felt that she was more excited, happy and admiring than in love :ninja: It is only my impression, clearly.

[DogLover]

Apologies for the lull, but the next romance is just about ready. Our guest contributor for this one practically has a PhD in Rhaegar-Lyanna studies, so Le Cygne and I are excited that Ygrain has graciously offered to present their love story. She'll be posting soon.

[Ygrain]

Thank you for the lovely introduction :-)

Rhaegar and Lyanna: a story in contrasts and parallels.

For the start, I apologize for the sketchiness, RL doesn’t allow me to elaborate and produce something more coherent.

The love story of Rhaegar and Lyanna is especially intriguing as there is so little said explicitly; most of it is hidden between the lines. Sometimes, the information is concealed in other love stories; sometimes it can be found in the contradictory versions of the events. At the beginning, there is definitely a confusion: which of the versions is true?

And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?

Her brother Rhaegar battled the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and died for the woman he loved.

In terms of consensual, there is no middle ground: either there was rape, or there was not. I will not go over the reasoning pointing to the existence of romance between R+L as it is basically the staple of the R+L threads, and focus on filling in the whats, hows and whys.

The data we have on our hands is rather scarce:

- Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty at the tourney of Harrenhall

- Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna, Robert’s rebellion followed and Rhaegar died on the Trident with her name on his lips

- Lyanna was found at the Tower of Joy, guarded by Kingsguard, and died after giving birth to Jon Snow (again, taking this as a fact without going through the supporting details)

Starting from the beginning, a parallel for the events of the HH tourney can be found in the story of Jorah and Lynesse. Jorah’s own description of how he felt that day is quite similar to Ned’s recollection of Rhaegar’s feats at HH:

I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse’s favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion’s laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty.

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

It is widely believed that crowning Lyanna as QoLaB was to honour her as KotLT – however, the parallel of Jorah becoming unstoppable due to infatuation with Lynesse, IMHO, points to romantic interest on Rhaegar’s part, as well.

It is rather disturbing to take the parallel even further, to the bitter end of the illusion of the two people who didn’t really know each other, but I believe that Rhaegar’s last word and Lyanna clutching the blue roses from him till the end suggest otherwise.

I cannot think of a parallel covering the time between the tourney and the abduction, so we go straight there:

‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave…. She was beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

This quote is generally used to support the notion of consensual relationship and elopement, implying Lyanna being somehow complicit in her own downfall. The following one, at first sight, seems to be contradictory, as it refers to an act of violence on Rhaegar’s part:

If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl.

The context, however, is Dany thinking about Daario prior her wedding to Hizdahr whom she marries out of duty. If Daario carried her off, she would not be unwilling, and the abduction would actually be a rescue from unwanted marriage. With Lyanna’s misgiving about her impeding wedding to Robert, we may be given a subtle hint at why the abduction happened and that force was not used against Lyanna herself but rather her guards.

An abduction of a willing participant is further paralleled in the Wildling marriages as Lyanna’s character and fighting prowess are definitely more alike to those of a free woman than a typical Westerosi high-born maiden.

What followed after the abduction can only be guessed; from the outcome, we can concur that similarly as Bael the Bard and the unnamed Stark daughter, some time was spent in hiding together until a child was conceived. It is notable that the child of this union became the Lord of Winterfell, even though Ygritte’s story doesn’t mention marriage of his parents.

The hints that Rhaegar and Lyanna revived the Targaryen polygamy have again been discussed in the R+L threads but I believe that I can offer some more insight in yet another parallel in the story of Robb and Jeyne.

Rhaegar is depicted as dutiful and honourable, which are the same values ingrained deep in the Stark family. When Robb marries Jeyne after becoming intimate with her, it is said that

“He chose the girl’s honor over his own.“

Curiously, the idea that one should marry the woman if he wants to have sex with her is supported by none other than Craster, and though Rhaegar certainly did not know about this application of polygamy, the parallel cannot be overlooked.

The notion that Rhaegar might have done the honourable thing and married Lyanna instead of dishonouring her by making her his mistress and impregnating her with his bastard, is further supported by this exchange between Ned and Robert:

“What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

The afterthought added to a seeming confirmation of Robert’s words is rather peculiar, as the speaker’s private thoughts are generally used to supply additional information or comment on what has been said, often voicing disagreement or criticism which cannot be said aloud. Compare with the following piece:

“Your Grace knows that I was fairly chosen. My father always said you were a just man.” Just but harsh had been Lord Eddard’s exact words, but Jon did not think it would be wise to share that.

The promises that Lyanna extracted from Ned concerned Jon’s safety and wellbeing, definitely not revenge on Rhaegar, hence the afterthought presents a contradiction to what is being said aloud. As the subject under the discussion is Targaryen aka Rhaegar’s honour, it must be concluded that Ned is privy to information supporting that Rhaegar did have honour and his treatment of Lyanna was not dishonourable. And, as has been established, the honourable thing is to get married.

It has been proposed that Rhaegar may have even staged the abduction in order to protect Lyanna’s honour in the eyes of Westeros and take the blame on himself, further along the above-mentioned line of putting the girl’s honour above his, but I am unable to support this idea by any parallel.

The tragic end of their love follows the parallel of Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones, both for the lovers themselves and the realm:

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses.

Both men chose the one that was not meant for them and both lost their kingdom and their lives for it, as well as did the women they loved. The same motive is repeated again with Robb and Jeyne, to a T. It is interesting to note a further parallel between D+J and R+J, which is so far missing for R+L but may be unveiled in the future:

And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

To end on a more optimistic note, I can present a RL parallel which, I believe, was the chief source of inspiration for the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna. To base it at least partly on quotes, here goes an extract from Stephen Clarke’s Thousand Years of Annoying the French:

In 1200 he (John Lackland) met Isabelle, daughter of the Count of Angouleme, and, smitten by her beauty (and her large landholdings), he had her abducted and married her, despite the fact that she was only twelve years old and was already betrothed to a French nobleman.

At the time, abduction of under-age girls was not an uncommon seduction technique, but the cheated suitor complained to the French King, Richard’s old (alleged) lover and enemy, Philippe Auguste, who summoned John to answer for himself. John refused, on the grounds that, as King of England, he was his own master and answerable to no-one – Dieu at mon droit, ne’est-ce pas?

Philippe August countered that, despite any clever mottos that Richard might have dreamt up, the King of France was still John’s feudal lord in Aquitaine, and therefore had authority over him.

I could add here that John’s first wife was set aside for being barren, that the conflict which started by Isabelle’s abduction cost him dearly and that it started not right after the abduction but only after a complaint was raised and John refused to comply. – Here, I believe, can be found at least a partial explanation for Rhaegar’s disappearance with Lyanna: avoiding the situation that (figuratively) broke John’s neck by getting into conflict with an authority higher than his own. Aerys, who had chosen Rhaegar’s first wife and was mistrustful of him, couldn’t be expected to support Rhaegar, and hence R+L sought the parallel of many RL (yes, I’m doing this intentionally) couples who, in a similar situation, thought it easier to ask forgiveness rather than permission.

Even though John never lost his crown or life, only lands, his power was severely abridged (which didn’t prevent him from spending so much time in Isabela’s bed that he neglected the matters of state, which might be hinted at Rhaegar’s supposed prolonged honeymoon at ToJ). The outcome of his action, however, as a chief parallel, is the same as in the case of Rhaegar and Lyanna: she became the mother of his heir.

[Le Cygne]

That's really beautiful, Ygrain! I'm so glad you agreed to write this.

I love that you used the different colors to complete the picture from the rest of the story. There are lots of cross-story clues about matters of the heart.

I never thought about it before, Rhaegar winning the tournament because Lyanna was watching. Other examples in the story of this, too.

And Ned saying Lyanna's willfulness brought her to an early grave tells us Lyanna's free will is big part of this story.

And that's perfect, "rescue from an unwanted marriage," carry her off, like Dany wanted to be carried off from her unwanted marriage, and by someone she loved.

The Wildling observation, along with the story of Lyanna's fighting prowess, perfect.

Nicely done, pointing out the subtlety of Ned's unspoken thought, that contrasts with his spoken remark. Promise me, Ned, was opposing Robert, to protect Jon from him.

And the Prince of Dragonflies and Jenny of Oldstones parallel, wonderful.

And yes, it's often that way in RL, ask forgiveness later, rather than permission first.

And another great parallel, the prolonged honeymoon at the ToJ. And just the name of that, Tower of Joy, says so much.

That was really wonderful reading!

Also wanted to add, more Jaime and Brienne ahead...

[Ygrain]

That's really beautiful, Ygrain! I'm so glad you agreed to write this.

I love that you used the different colors to complete the picture from the rest of the story. There are lots of cross-story clues about matters of the heart.

Thank you!

I think the colour differentiation comes with being a teacher :D

And yes, it's often that way in RL, ask forgiveness later, rather than permission first.

I know personally two couples who did the same to press the parents into accepting their daughter's choice of partner, and here we're talking about 21st century rather liberal country. - Not running away at swordpoint, of course, but getting her pregnant.

[DogLover]

What a wonderful essay, Ygrain! Truly illuminating. And I’m thrilled that Robb/Jeyne and Rhaegar/Lyanna were fortuitously presented back to back, since there are so many similarities.

While I’ve long considered Rhaegar’s and Lyanna’s feelings for each other mutual and pretty much take R+L=J for granted, the parallels to other relationships reveals so much about their feelings for each other and their motives. I’ve pretty much only compared the two to Robb and Jeyne in the past, and never even considered the Jorah/Lynesse comparison. But it seems so obvious now.

I also absolutely love the John/Isabella comparison. I often think of John and Isabella during debates over marriage and age, but never would I have linked their story to Rhaegar and Lyanna’s, but it works!

Thank you so much! Not only have you presented such an in depth look at a romance that’s hinted at throughout the series, but you also made me realize I really need to re-read the series again, as there’s always more to uncover.

[Ygrain]

What a wonderful essay, Ygrain! Truly illuminating. And I’m thrilled that Robb/Jeyne and Rhaegar/Lyanna were fortuitously presented back to back, since there are so many similarities.

While I’ve long considered Rhaegar’s and Lyanna’s feelings for each other mutual and pretty much take R+L=J for granted, the parallels to other relationships reveals so much about their feelings for each other and their motives. I’ve pretty much only compared the two to Robb and Jeyne in the past, and never even considered the Jorah/Lynesse comparison. But it seems so obvious now.

I also absolutely love the John/Isabella comparison. I often think of John and Isabella during debates over marriage and age, but never would I have linked their story to Rhaegar and Lyanna’s, but it works!

Thank you so much! Not only have you presented such an in depth look at a romance that’s hinted at throughout the series, but you also made me realize I really need to re-read the series again, as there’s always more to uncover.

You don't want to know how many re-reads it took me to realize that weird afterthought of Ned's :D

Concerning the parallel of R+J, I could perhaps add that both relationships, while certainly in defiance of conventions and causing huge offence, received far harsher backlash than they should have. The amends that Robb made to Lord Frey should have been sufficient. The "abduction" of Lyanna should have been settled with similar amends and negotiations, it shouldn't have come down to a full-scale war. Unfortunately, both Aerys and Lord Frey shared one super dangerous feature - an overblown ego which did not tolerate offence. Aerys' was his own undoing, and I sincerely hope that Walder's will be, as well.

[The guy from the Vale]

Nice write-up, Ygrain.

I urge caution with respect to the Jorah/Lynesse parallel though. Rhaegar's motives for giving the Crown of Love and Beauty to Lyanna are ambiguous at this point. Depending on our reading of the KotLT story, Rhaegar might have given her the crown for her deeds as KotLT, not because he loved her (yet). we also have no indication of any Rhaegar/Lyanna romance in the year between the tourney and the abduction, and indeed Rhaegar seems to have stayed faithful to Elia for that time. Our current perception is that he didn't pursue Lyanna until Elia could not have any additional children. If that is how things will shake out ultimately is anyone's guess, and I can see Martin having yet another twist up his sleeve, but that's basically the little we know so far. On the other hand, Jorah seemed encuraged by his desire to wed Lynesse from the moment he saw her.

All that said, and ignoring the uncertain circumstances for the moment, I am confident the relation between Lyanna and Rhaegar was cnsensual for all the reasons you mentioned. It seems very likely that the two married, given the ToJ dialogue and lots of foreshadowing.

[Le Cygne]

I think the parallel is a good one. Just from a narrative standpoint, I think there was something there between Rhaegar and Lyanna from the start, too.

"This isn't going to be one of those love stories, is it?" Bran asked suspiciously...

"The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head."

Barriston says he'd have chosen someone as queen of love and beauty that he felt romantically about, too:

If I had been a better knight... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty...

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice... His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elias companions... Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Asharas smile, the sound of her laughter.