Words of Radiance Discussion (Full spoilers for WoK & WoR)

[Ded As Ned]

The Recreance was after the Last Desolation. Some of Dalinar's visions were from before the Last Desolation and some after.

That list is for the week ending March 1, apparently.

So I'm right that the Recreance is just following the Last Desolation then... I don't think I really picked up that some of Dalinar's visions were after that. They generally left me confused the first time through, so I didn't give them much thought until late in the book when I picked up on what was going on.

Re: NYT... Didn't catch that it was for the week ending 3/1 in the fine print, so maybe it will be a few weeks before anything is known? I don't really follow the bestseleller's list... I just saw 3/16 date at the top and thought that meant it was for last week.

[AverageGuy]

So I'm right that the Recreance is just following the Last Desolation then... I don't think I really picked up that some of Dalinar's visions were after that. They generally left me confused the first time through, so I didn't give them much thought until late in the book when I picked up on what was going on.

The Recreance is after the Last Desolation, but not directly after the Last Desolation. Dalinar's visions begin before and continue after the Last Desolation, but I think they end at the Recreance.

After the Last Desolation, the Heralds tell everyone the Voidbringers have been defeated forever and then leave. After that, the Knights Radiant are basically in charge for some amount of time, probably centuries, maybe millennia. At some point, the Recreance begins when the Radiants betray their oaths, kill their spren, and leave their Shards behind. As of the latest book, we know it wasn't that simple and that some infighting began among the Radiants after that. My impression of the timeline:

??? Years ago - Nohadon survives a Desolation. One of Dalinar's visions.

??? Years ago - Nohadon writes The Way of Kings.

??? Years ago - Surgebinders form the Knights Radiant. Nohadon may be involved, but they at least end up using principles found in his book.

4500 Years ago - The Heralds leave after Aharietiam/the Last Desolation.

??? Years ago - Long after the Last Desolation. Dalinar's Feverstone Keep vision, the beginning of the Recreance and the end of the Silver Kingdoms. The Radiants abandon their oaths, and the ardents take control.

??? Years ago - The Sunmaker comes along, conquers Alethkar, enslaves all ardents.

??? Years ago - The Sunmaker dies, the Alethi split into 10 separate princedoms.

Past century - Gavilar, inspired by the Sunmaker, decides to reconquer Alethkar. Shit happens, he dies, and we're at the present day.

I realize there are a lot of questions in those dates, but that's the general flow of events.

[Gaston de Foix]

The Recreance is after the Last Desolation, but not directly after the Last Desolation. Dalinar's visions begin before and continue after the Last Desolation, but I think they end at the Recreance.

After the Last Desolation, the Heralds tell everyone the Voidbringers have been defeated forever and then leave. After that, the Knights Radiant are basically in charge for some amount of time, probably centuries, maybe millennia. At some point, the Recreance begins when the Radiants betray their oaths, kill their spren, and leave their Shards behind. As of the latest book, we know it wasn't that simple and that some infighting began among the Radiants after that. My impression of the timeline:

??? Years ago - Nohadon survives a Desolation. One of Dalinar's visions.

??? Years ago - Nohadon writes The Way of Kings.

??? Years ago - Surgebinders form the Knights Radiant. Nohadon may be involved, but they at least end up using principles found in his book.

4500 Years ago - The Heralds leave after Aharietiam/the Last Desolation.

??? Years ago - Long after the Last Desolation. Dalinar's Feverstone Keep vision, the beginning of the Recreance and the end of the Silver Kingdoms. The Radiants abandon their oaths, and the ardents take control.

??? Years ago - The Sunmaker comes along, conquers Alethkar, enslaves all ardents.

??? Years ago - The Sunmaker dies, the Alethi split into 10 separate princedoms.

Past century - Gavilar, inspired by the Sunmaker, decides to reconquer Alethkar. Shit happens, he dies, and we're at the present day.

I realize there are a lot of questions in those dates, but that's the general flow of events.

So Nohadon preceded the Last Desolation? Then where are the Heralds? They turned up at every Desolation and 4/10 Aletheli died in this one -with nary a sign. Nohadon talks about what the Heralds will find when they return. This sort of implies they have been MIA, certainly that they haven't been around recently.

[fionwe1987]

Looks like the book is #1 on the NYT bestseller list.

[AverageGuy]

So Nohadon preceded the Last Desolation? Then where are the Heralds? They turned up at every Desolation and 4/10 Aletheli died in this one -with nary a sign. Nohadon talks about what the Heralds will find when they return. This sort of implies they have been MIA, certainly that they haven't been around recently.

In the Prelude, the two Heralds mention the Radiants, so they exist by the Last Desolation. However, the first book also mentions that the Radiants were founded based on Nohadon's ideas, so they don't exist yet when Dalinar has his vision of Nohadon as a young man. Surgebinders in general do, but they're kings or under the command of kings rather than a united, independent organization. And because of that, Surgebinders probably screwed things up worse by jockeying for personal power prior to the Desolation (which probably was the main reason the Radiants were formed). One particular Surgebinder kicked off what sounds like a world war right before, so Nohadon is worried about what the Heralds will find the next time they return. He's worried about what men will do during the now in-between time. This is a pretty straightforward reading of that passage you're referring to:

“The others want to blame Alakavish. And true, if he hadn’t brought us to war before the Desolation, we might not have been broken this badly. But Alakavish was a symptom of a greater disease. When the Heralds next return, what will they find? A people who have forgotten them yet again? A world torn by war and squabbling? If we continue as we have, then perhaps we deserve to lose.”

What Dalinar sees is the aftermath of a Desolation, not the midst of one. That the Heralds will return for the next Desolation does not preclude their already having shown up for this Desolation. The Heralds who survived would have gone back to wherever Heralds go to be tortured between Desolations, while those that died would already be there.

[Spring Bass]

I finished it yesterday.

It was . . .okay. I think it would have been a much better book if Sanderson had cut it down to about 500-600 pages instead of the 1000+ page monster that is, because parts of it felt flabby and protracted (something I never thought I'd say about a Sanderson book, since he usually writes page-turners). After about page 400 I was skimming it through most stretches.

I don't know how he's going to stretch the story out through three more of these for the first arc in the Stormlight Archive.

[Mack Kilimaro]

Picked up Words of Radiance from the library a few days ago and made my way through it already. I liked it in spite of Sanderson's many faults, none of which you need me to point out. I just can't believe the phrase "she summoned her awesomeness" got past the editors. There's stuff like that in everything he writes and it drives me crazy.

I've been thinking about it a lot and what bothers me the most is that this is what's so popular. When I look at the fact that Words of Radiance already has 3,394 ratings on Goodreads after like two weeks and then Daniel Abraham's The Price of Spring has 1,948 ratings after like four and a half years, that's crazy. Reading Sanderson if you're into epic fantasy is great, but people need to read some other stuff too! I honestly feel sorry for anyone who is out there who's such a fan that they think Sanderson is the best at anything, because they're missing out on much that's better.

It's not bad, though. It has its good parts, some very good, along with the things that are annoying as hell (of which there are a few, and they are very annoying). It's a fun read and I hope his ambition for the series is realized. I've felt from the beginning that starting out with a ten-book plan is insane considering how things were initially planned with The Wheel of Time and ASOIAF and how they turned out. But I think it's very possible that Sanderson at least learned from the things that went wrong for what came before. Getting immersed in all of that from finishing A Memory of Light can't have hurt.

I can see the parts where it's obvious he's swinging for the fences of fantasy greatness. Sometimes it seems a little too obvious. The big set-piece kind of scenes - the arena combat, the big, climactic battle on the Shattered Plains, these are great. The revelation of the world, building the mysteries and giving people fodder for theorizing between books, that's starting to materialize, much more than it was after one book. He does that well. And goddamn, the art included is beautiful. He does this like nobody else.

I wish it was better. I think it might get better. I hope that it does.

[Ded As Ned]

snip...

It's not bad, though. It has its good parts, some very good, along with the things that are annoying as hell (of which there are a few, and they are very annoying). It's a fun read and I hope his ambition for the series is realized. I've felt from the beginning that starting out with a ten-book plan is insane considering how things were initially planned with The Wheel of Time and ASOIAF and how they turned out. But I think it's very possible that Sanderson at least learned from the things that went wrong for what came before. Getting immersed in all of that from finishing A Memory of Light can't have hurt...

One of BS's talents is setting an outline and sticking to it, so I think this series (and he is probably the only author I'd say that about with any confidence) will actually be the planned 10-books. Agreed on the rest though, as most of us do I think.

[Mexal]

I enjoyed the book well enough. I agree with most of the criticisms here but they didn't really diminish my enjoyment. I read Sanderson to see what happens and be entertained and this book did enough of that for me to be satisfied. He does need a strong editor though. That whole "awesomeness" bit with Lift (though hilarious when listening to it on the audio tape; the lady really got into it) was stupid and all of the "witty" comments were way overdone. Cut out half of them and you cut down the page count by like 300 pages. Still, story is intriguing enough for me to read the next book when it comes out and I respect Sanderson for his ability to put out books in a timely fashion.

[Werthead]

Something I'm scratching my head over even more now (on p. 900) than in WoK is reconciling Sanderson's statements that Stormlight won't have a huge amount of Cosmere material in it when it seems to me that the Cosmere is central to the series, or vastly moreso than in any of his previous books.

Rayse/Odium is a Shardholder and appears to be the Big Bad of this series, imprisoned elsewhere in the Roshar system and trying to break back into Roshar. He may be allied to the Voidbringers or leading them. The 17th Shard seems happy to allow Odium to destroy Roshar as long as he is prevented from leaving the system and attacking the other Shardworlds, but Hoid/Wit seems to be much more reluctant to let him wipe out Roshar in the process.

At some point Rayse/Odium's backstory should become clearer in the series and at that point would appear to blow the Cosmere wide open. Mistborn avoided this by having the Lord Ruler being a man who took up the Shard after the original Yolenese holder (Ati) was killed, so he didn't really know WTF was going on, but Rayse is the original deal.

[Werthead]

That's interesting. Apparently Brandon is going to start Stormlight #3 this year, with the working title Stones Unhallowed. What was surprising is that the second and third Wax and Wayne Mistborn books are going to be pushed back to after it. I thought the plan was for Shadows of Self to come out this year? Oh well.

Interestingly, if Brandon hits his 18-month turnaround target, Stormlight #3, which isn't even fully outlined yet and we can guess will probably also be huge, could be out before 2015 is done.

[Rhom]

Still avoiding spoilers... Book signing in Lexington tonight, so I'll be picking up this mammoth there. Looking forward to it.

[ziz0z]

Spoilers for Mistborn 3:

I'm not entirely clear on the details, but the Lord Ruler only held the power of a Shard briefly. Ati didn't die until Vin killed him. I doubt that more Cosmere information than was given in Hero of Ages is necessary to deal with Odium. I suppose it helps that the Shards, over time, mold their holders to their intent (i.e. ruin, preservation, etc.). On the other hand, Hoid isn't a Shard and understanding him, if he plays a major role, probably will require some Cosmere backstory.

All that said, what worries me most in this regard is something completely different that happens on page 1064. I imagine people who hadn't read Sanderson's other works reacted to it very differently than I did, and I'm curious how well it worked (and will work going forward) for those people.

[Argonath Diver]

Re-read the last 150 pages or so, as the first run-through was exceptionally late at night after a lot of drinking, and I was rather fuzzy on some things. Anyhow, I didn't find one little thing that I'd noticed my first read through - it must have been an earlier chapter.

At one point Wit mentions only one other person - referred to as a She - on the world being as old as him, didn't he?

edit: I found it, thank you e-books!

That's right," Adolin said with a nod. "Stick to women your own age,"

Wit grinned. "Well, that might be a little harder. I think there's only one of those around these parts, and she and I never did get along."

So, I'm not very well-versed in this Cosmere deal - do we have any idea who is also super-duper-old (and does that mean Wit's older than the Heralds, etc? Hmm.

[Werthead]

Re-read the last 150 pages or so, as the first run-through was exceptionally late at night after a lot of drinking, and I was rather fuzzy on some things. Anyhow, I didn't find one little thing that I'd noticed my first read through - it must have been an earlier chapter.

At one point Wit mentions only one other person - referred to as a She - on the world being as old as him, didn't he?

So, I'm not very well-versed in this Cosmere deal - do we have any idea who is also super-duper-old (and does that mean Wit's older than the Heralds, etc? Hmm.

Yes.

This would be the holder of the Shard Cultivation, who would presumably be as powerful as Honor/the Almighty/Tanavast. All of the Shardholders would appear to be immortal and Wit/Hoid is keeping up with them by using magic to suspend his aging for long periods (he goes into a form of suspension, and apparently sometimes uses 'relativistic effects'). Wit/Hoid is just a human, but he's a contemporary of and knew all of the original Shardholders, remaining mortal whilst they basically became gods.

Who is holding Cultivation is not known. Since Honor was killed by Odium/Rayse, she may be lying low for fear of the same thing happening to them. However, there is a strong theory that she may be in Shinovar, helping that kingdom endure the highstorms better than the rest.

For the power level we are dealing with here, Honor, Cultivation and Odium are the same types of entities as Ruin and Preservation in the Mistborn books: former mortals who have been transformed into gods by inheriting the shattered power of creation itself.

This outlines Words of Radiance's place in the Cosmere. It contains spoilers for Elantris, Warbreaker (which seems to be fairly closely linked to the Stormlight books) and the Mistborn books.

[Gaston de Foix]

Yes.

This would be the holder of the Shard Cultivation, who would presumably be as powerful as Honor/the Almighty/Tanavast. All of the Shardholders would appear to be immortal and Wit/Hoid is keeping up with them by using magic to suspend his aging for long periods (he goes into a form of suspension, and apparently sometimes uses 'relativistic effects'). Wit/Hoid is just a human, but he's a contemporary of and knew all of the original Shardholders, remaining mortal whilst they basically became gods.

Who is holding Cultivation is not known. Since Honor was killed by Odium/Rayse, she may be lying low for fear of the same thing happening to them. However, there is a strong theory that she may be in Shinovar, helping that kingdom endure the highstorms better than the rest.

For the power level we are dealing with here, Honor, Cultivation and Odium are the same types of entities as Ruin and Preservation in the Mistborn books: former mortals who have been transformed into gods by inheriting the shattered power of creation itself.

This outlines Words of Radiance's place in the Cosmere. It contains spoilers for Elantris, Warbreaker (which seems to be fairly closely linked to the Stormlight books) and the Mistborn books.

Cultivation's holder's name is Reya. ("The sun hadn't quite set, but in the darkening sky, stars had begun to appear around Talns Scar. The Tear hung just above the horizon, a star much brighter than the others, named for the single tear Reya was said to have shed." (WOR, Kindle Edition, pg. 362 of 1080)

She may well not be in Shinovar but on one of the moons or another planet on the Rosharian system (see WOK ch. 75) - "This isn't just about you either," the figure said, raising his hand into the air. A light winked out in the sky, one that Dalinar hadn't realized was there. Then another winked out as well. The sun seemed to be growing dimmer.

[Ded As Ned]

How do Odium-spren exist when Odium isn't shattered?

[ziz0z]

^^Has Brandon confirmed that? If not, I don't see why we should assume Reya is Cultivation's name. I'd be somewhat surprised if the names of the Shardholders were generally known on Roshar, actually. Although I guess the Stormfather knew Tanavast's name.

[Werthead]

Yeah, Wit/Hoid and the other worldhoppers should know their real names, and the Stormfather knowing it makes sense (as a spren/splinter of Tanavast's, he may be privy to all sorts of information which will be interesting if he is going to be bound to Dalinar from hereon out). Otherwise the Shardholders don't seem to be keen on using their former names, as it represents lives they have lost and left behind and people are no longer are.

How do Odium-spren exist when Odium isn't shattered?

I think spren can be formed by the entity over great periods of time as well as formed by its destruction (like honorspren), though this appears to be a bit of a grey area. Odium not being physically present on Roshar might have something to do with (the Odium-spren are either left-behind parts of its essence, or can leak onto Roshar via Shadesmar somewhow).

[john]

Have we seen any regrowth spren, or something else that would be derived from Cultivation? Because that's not shattered either.

As far as Odium goes, he does get called the Broken One (ripped off the wiki):

“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”—Way of Kings, epigraph 11.

Also, one of the listener songs:

"Our gods were born splinters of a soul, / Of one who seeks to take control, / Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. / They are his spren, his gift, his price. / But the nightforms speak of future life, / A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite."

So it seems like he is splintered somehow. Maybe smashing other shards creates wear and tear on your own one.