Words of Radiance Discussion (Full spoilers for WoK & WoR)

[Mack Kilimaro]

Well, Sanderson has said repeatedly that a character having a flashback book doesn't necessarily mean they'll survive that long. What happens in practice we'll have to see.

Flashbacks centered around dead characters would be even worse than no main characters dying at all. Unless, maybe, they are presented as visions granted to a still-living character, I suppose.

[Werthead]

Is the Seventeenth Shard something that comes up in Elantris? That's the one I haven't read, and while I wasn't looking for it in Mistborn or Stormlight, that's not a phrase I remember seeing. Guys going between worlds and mucking around seems like it'd be important to a grand story like the one on Roshar and two books in it's only vague hints. I guess maybe it will come more to the forefront later and so far it's just being mentioned as a seed for later - much like Lift or what's her face who is on the floating island.

I believe Stormlight takes place quite a long time after the other books, so it's possible that the Seventeenth Shard was founded after the events of Mistborn etc. Certainly characters like Demoux joined the organisation only after the events of the novel/trilogy they were in were concluded.

[ziz0z]

The Seventeenth Shard is mentioned in the letter that makes up the epigraphs in Part 2 of The Way of Kings. The Chapter 26 epigraph:

I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me.

[fionwe1987]

I believe Stormlight takes place quite a long time after the other books, so it's possible that the Seventeenth Shard was founded after the events of Mistborn etc. Certainly characters like Demoux joined the organisation only after the events of the novel/trilogy they were in were concluded.

Yeah Stormlight is well after the first Mistborn trilogy. Rayse/Odium has been prisoner for millenia according to Cultivation (or whoever wrote the letter to Hoid). Yet, Brandon says Rayse is very afraid of Harmony/Sazed. To me that makes it clear there have been many thousands of years between the end of Mistborn One and Stormlight.

[Solmyr]

Finished it a few days ago, started catching up on the thread, but after the 5th comment that bashed on Lift I felt the urge to comment before the bile rising in me reached dangerous levels.

Listened to the audiobook (as usual) and this could be part of the reason why I did not perceive the book as slow. In fact I found the pacing better than that of WoK, where one of the main characters was half a world away. In WoR all of the main characters are in the same camp for most of the book and they interact with each other. So each chapter advances the overall story.

Dialogue and character complexity and depth is far from remarkable, but this is something I am used to by now and therefore I wasn't disappointed. Having said that, some of the new characters in the book were quite inspiring and I believe they can turn out much better than existing characters such as Kaladin.

Worldbuilding is going on schedule, even ahead of what I had expected. The last 5 hours of the book not only closed the Listeners plotline (for now), but managed to set a whole new plotline revolving around Urethiru(spelling?) and the Everstorm that now supposedly circles the world (take cover bald Shin ;)). Jasnah could've stayed dead and probably should've, but then again Brandon kinda needs to get on with establishing the orders of the KR and killing the leading KR of the Elsecallers would only mean he has one more character to develop in future books. The nature of the KR kinda destines that the leaders of each order would need to stay alive at least until the orders are established and operating.

All in all, the book is what I expected and I wasn't disappointed. One pleasant surprise was that there were a lot of things left to theorize. This was not the case with Mistborn afaik.

P.S. Now on Lift (yes, I simply can't let it go :D): if you don't like the character, that's fine. But complaining that a 13-year-old girl, who was raised on the streets in a city we know nothing of, in a world of which we know little, uses a words "awesomeness" / "awesome" to describe a strange magical ability she barely understands, is nothing but nitpickish. In fact I would've called bullshit on the entire character had she used anything more refined. Her interaction with her spren should be telltale enough of how lacking she is in education. For Shards' sake, she doesn't even know how to count beyond ten and you begrudge her the use of the word "awesome"?!

*takes a deep breath*

Anyway, Lift is perhaps my favourite character in the books so far, ever since I read her interlude as part of the chapter previews of the book. I sincerely hope we see more of her, hopefully as a KR. I would relish watching her interact with refined characters such as Shallan and Jasnah.

[Rhom]

I tend to agree. I liked Lift and thought her chapter was a lot of fun. I also agree with you about the awesomeness. It really reminded me of Vin early in Mistborn. She's a street smart kid unconsciously using powers she's never even heard of. Vin calls it her Luck, Lift calls it her Awesomeness.

IMHO, it fits.

[End of Disc One]

It's a peeve. I may have said earlier in this thread, but Words of Radiance is one of my favorite books of all time. I can get past most Sanderson-isms. But "awesomeness" just makes me cringe. I get that Lift is young, but I just don't like the word. I really hope Lift stops using that word but the second half of Stormlight.

[ziz0z]

On the timeline, Stormlight actually takes place before Alloy of Law per this Q&A answer. Odium is "trapped" in the Roshar system, but he can presumably still do a lot of damage there. I suppose he has a way of learning news of Shardic events elsewhere and that he's scared of Sazed coming to Roshar/Braize. Alternatively, given that Alloy happens later, maybe Odium only becomes afraid of Sazed after the events of The Stormlight Archive.

[Solmyr]

Finished catching up with the thread:

@fionwe1987 - did Brandon speak about main characters of books 6-10 at the signing at Lexington? I am [pleasantly] surprised about the tidbit about Lift getting her own book, for as far as I recall, when her interlude was first released, the information on the 17th shard forum was that she was a minor character and we may or may not see more of her in the future. Also, at that point in time I don't recall Brandon having confirmed any of the 6-10 books' main characters. Jasnah certainly isn't a surprise (and not confirming makes sense to preserve the illusion of her death throughout WoR).

About Elhokar - if he does become a KR I most sincerely hope he isn't a Lightweaver. Can't explain why, but I don't think that a fitting order for him. I would place him either as an Elsecaller or Willshaper, because of how the Transportation surge fits his cowardly nature. Also, it has been speculated that the surges of Cohesion and Tension might have to do with forming some sorts of shields/barriers - if that's the case, shield+run seem like the perfect powers for a paranoid coward ;).

[fionwe1987]

Hmm... I guess I was wrong on the timeline. Interesting...

As for awesomeness: the issue isn't that Lift doesn't use a more sophisticated word. It is that she uses this word, which just seems way too modern in usage, and incredibly cringeworthy. Its what I'd expect to hear in anime.

Solmyr: I can add the link a little later, but yes, Lift and Jasnah are confirmed as having their own flashback novels in the second half of the series. Brandon has said "Lift is very important".

[Mack Kilimaro]

What if Lift had summoned her "bomb-ass shit"? I'm just wondering where some of you guys would draw the line.

[emberling]

The "summoned her awesomeness" line especially, as well as much of the rest of Lift's word choices (I rather liked her story, actually, just not the words used to tell it) I think is cringeworthy not because it crossed one line that should not be crossed, but because it fell flat on several levels. None of them individually would be much worthy of comment; it's only painful because they are all together.

- Lift's extremely unusual word choices are essentially a (invented) dialect. Generally writing thick dialect accurately requires true mastery or else it becomes a chore for the reader and appears rather caricaturish. Instead usually you want to see mostly non-surprising word choice with the occasional unusual word choice to give the flavor of the speech pattern without beating us over the head with it. Lift's chapter was well into the beating us over the head zone to me, and Sanderson is no master to pull it off.

- The word "awesome" has two meanings. One is modern and is basically "really good"; one is archaic and means something in the vicinity of "terrifyingly large" though the size is often metaphoric. "Summon" is not in common use and connotes a fantasy-land archaism; thus, the juxtaposition of "summon" followed by "awesome" connotes the archaic definition of both: what is called must have grandeur, weight, earth-shattering import. This clashes glaringly with Lift's actual attitude towards her powers.

- Language that calls to mind any specific group, time period, social caste etc. should generally be avoided unless intended to connote an association with that group. The casual "awesome" has been around for a while but it still calls forth some fairly specific Earth cultural images. "Cool" has been around for longer and I don't think I've ever seen a secondary-world fantasy attempt to adopt it. I don't see any problem with using words that have become truly generic like "yeah" and "okay" and I was tempted several times in this thread to argue with people who did. "Bomb-ass shit" (which is a degree more culturally specific than "awesome") would be provisionally acceptable in a vacuum, pending confirmation that Lift's upbringing was among a group recognizable as crypto-gangstas and that other groups in the book also had their dialects "translated" to familiar ones.

Any of those points are forgivable stumbles. But once you have enough stumbles, you get bad.

[Solmyr]

Although I concur with your(plural) rationale about why the word awesome could be interpreted as inappropriate in a fantasy setting and thus break the immersion of the reader, it simply did not produce this effect for me. I rarely ever care what words are used, as long as the author is consistent. This is why I dig absurdly long fantasy books after all - I long to be immersed in an alien setting and stumble my way around it for a while until I grasp the quirks of the land and its characters - that includes their language. It's a mental exercise and I approach it with patience and an open mind.

Having said that, if Brandon used the word sausagebowls to describe a character's shoes for example I wouldn't have a problem with that. I would certainly find it odd, but if the character were consistent in calling his shoes that and the context made it clear what sausagebowls were I would soon stop noticing it - my brain would imagine whatever the character wears on his feet instead of the made-up (or 'wrongly' used) word.

The reason I am willing to buy all that is because fantasy worlds are the product of the author's imagination. Many authors invent whole new languages to go along with their world and fans love it, but if those same authors misuse a single word from the English language everyone loses their shit. Forget that the characters speak English for a second and pretend "awesome" is a word that is used in the Shadow City (afaik that was the place Lift grew up) to describe someone with a lot of spunk (I choose spunk on purpose, because I distinctly remember Lift using it to describe that other kid she eventually rescued) - it might not mean what you think it means. Go with the word and derive its meaning from the context. If you stumble upon inconsistent uses of the word, then we have a problem, but as far as I remember the word awesome was used quite consistently by Lift in her interlude.

P.S. On a side note I am awesomely glad that Lift is important and will have her own book. I hope her book inspires awe in the hearts of some of the haters and deliver an awesome amount of awesomeness to those of us who love her ;).

[Mexal]

To be fair, that whole chapter with Lift sounded infinitely better on the audiobook then I imagine it did in most people's heads as the narrator really did try her hardest to add cool inflection to "awesomeness" instead of rolling her eyes as I imagine most of you did.

[Werthead]

The Stormlight books work better if you imagine them as Final Fantasy video games. Lift's entire chapter could be one of the in media res openings to an FF game, in fact.

[Ded As Ned]

To be fair, that whole chapter with Lift sounded infinitely better on the audiobook then I imagine it did in most people's heads as the narrator really did try her hardest to add cool inflection to "awesomeness" instead of rolling her eyes as I imagine most of you did.

I think I mentioned it before, but I kept picturing a Valley Girl in a cheerleading outfit chewing on gum through her dialogue. It really threw me off. As someone mentioned above, it wasn't the fact that BS was attempting to give her a dialect representative of her region and/or upbringing, it was that the terms and wording he chose to use already had strong affiliations for me in the real world.

I had the same issue with the guys who seemed to have a dialect similar to that of my native central Appalachia (soldiers, or B4 guys, or Herdazians? I forget). Particularly the overuse of "ain't".

Both just struck me as if the author had picked a random dialect from the real world and tossed it into Roshar. A minor gripe, overall, but one that was really jarring for me while reading.

[fionwe1987]

I forgot to add that Taln (Herald), or as Brandon insists, the man we know as Taln, is also one of the major flashback characters of the second half of the Archive.

As for me, I don't mind if modern language is used consistently in a novel. But that is clearly not the case with Brandon. Case in point:

"Yes", Dalinar said. "I want you with your men, Roion. They need to see you. This is going to terrify them, but not you. You're careful, in control."

"Yeah", Roion said. "Yes. You... you're going to get us out of this, right?"

Obviously, two different people can use "yeah" and "yes" based on their preference. But when the same guy says one followed by the other, it is incredibly weird.

[Rhom]

I forgot to add that Taln (Herald), or as Brandon insists, the man we know as Taln, is also one of the major flashback characters of the second half of the Archive.

As for me, I don't mind if modern language is used consistently in a novel. But that is clearly not the case with Brandon. Case in point:

"Yes", Dalinar said. "I want you with your men, Roion. They need to see you. This is going to terrify them, but not you. You're careful, in control."

"Yeah", Roion said. "Yes. You... you're going to get us out of this, right?"

Obviously, two different people can use "yeah" and "yes" based on their preference. But when the same guy says one followed by the other, it is incredibly weird.

Eh. If I were really nervous when someone asked me something, I would stumble and say "yeah" and then when I realized the situation called for me to have a bit more control of myself, I would catch my breath and say "Yes."

That's the way I read that passage.

[fionwe1987]

Eh. If I were really nervous when someone asked me something, I would stumble and say "yeah" and then when I realized the situation called for me to have a bit more control of myself, I would catch my breath and say "Yes."

That's the way I read that passage.

That's a rather convoluted justification to have "yeah" in there, don't you think? And I'm not saying everyone needs to be thrown off by it. Just that is very much is possible to be thrown out of the novel by such sentences.

[Rhom]

That's a rather convoluted justification to have "yeah" in there, don't you think? And I'm not saying everyone needs to be thrown off by it. Just that is very much is possible to be thrown out of the novel by such sentences.

I didn't consider it convoluted. It's honestly the way I would react in that situation.

But yes to your larger point, people can and do get taken out of their immersion for smaller issues than this.