Maybe Rhaegar was obsessed with Lyanna?

[Jory Cassel]

Might makes right in Westeros, given that its hardly a fairy-tale kingdom, and plenty of Targaryen rulers have passed over the "rightful" king/heir to press their own claim. Look at Meagor I the Cruel -- he cheerfully screwed over his nephew Jaehaerys (the rightful heir and son of the past king, Aenys) to become an early king of Westeros. And what did the realm do? Accepted it after the fact. Maegor had Targaryen blood and he had the power to supersede the "rightful" king. He could do it and so, he did it.

No reason why Rhaegar couldn't do the same and have people accept his rule as well. After all, he's far more popular than Aerys and he would be king sooner or later anyway. So why not speed up the process? I mean, seriously -- who's willing to fight all that hard for Aerys' rule? The Baratheons and Starks and what-not might have fussed a bit but I doubt they're about to march off to war against the Martells and Lannisters and who knows what to prop up an unpopular king who's already grown old and wouldn't live more than a few decades longer anyhow.

Again, a little accuracy please - I was never arguing that Rhaegar could not have done it, simply that it was not such an easy thing to do as you make it out to be, and that it maybe/probably was simply unnecessary from Rhaegar's perspective to wage war as long as Aerys was a largely functioning ruler. And a son disposing of a father to assume rule is still not perceived well amongst nobility in Westeros.

Quote: "And again, he contemplated making changes and probably dethroning Aerys, but it was only in retrospect, when the damage was already done, that he realized the scale of the mistake he could not before, as – once again – Aerys never displayed the same amount of madness before the rebellion and altogether he was a functioning ruler."

I don't agree with that. Rhaegar himself said he had been thinking of putting together a counsel and taking over the throne for "a long time." Is "a long time" supposed to be span just the year of the rebellion? Funny choice of words if so.

And Varys had been in Aerys court for years past, inflaming Aerys with reports and stoking his paranoia about his son Rhaegar toppling him from the throne. Was Rhaegar really blind to that? If so, that's sad on Rhaegar's part, given that Aerys had another son in Viserys who could well make an alternative heir if Aerys grew paranoid enough. If I were Rhaegar, I would have actually toppled Aerys as a preventive measure!

And not to mention, I would have also toppled Aerys to make sure he couldn't possibly interfere in any way with any third-head-of-the-dragon baby-making plans. After all, what's to say that even a relatively sane Aerys wouldn't have gotten pissed and passed Rhaegar over for Viserys if Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna? Maybe the country would have stayed together -- but if Rhaegar pissed Aerys off enough with his hair-brained schemes that took place without Aerys' permission, he might well find himself out on his ass as crown prince.

Sane or insane, Aerys had the full ability to make plenty of trouble for Rhaegar either way.

A pity that you don't agree with that, but this is not a matter of opinion, Rhaegar states that he "meant to make changes", but for a reason unknown to us he did not do so. He contemplated making changes, but he did not, in retrospect, however, after Aerys went totally nuts, he realizes not deposing of him earlier was a grave mistake. This is my explanation of Rhaegar's statement, where exactly is the logical flaw in that?

And how do you know to which extend Rhaegar was aware of Varys putting a wedge in between Aerys and Rhaegar? Textual proof pls.

How is speculating on Lyanna's possible fate after the events of the war writing fanfiction? Let's say that her children don't become bastards -- honestly, we don't have any definite idea what Rhaegar was or was not planning but let's run with the idea that he wants these half-Stark, half-Targ kids legitimized. If so, Lyanna will probably be around and she might end up the official mistress (ie mistress-en-titre) of the court -- or be made the Second Queen. (I've seen Rhaegar-fans argue that polygamy is possible for the Targaryens and non-Targaryen women so fine -- let's run with that.)

If so, could you really see "wolf-blooded" Lyanna being happy in the role of Second Queen? Hell, let's make things easy for her and kill off sickly Elia. Is she happier in her role as primary Queen? The higher a woman's status in Westerosi society, the more restrictions she has to follow and the more impeccable her conduct must be. Lyanna will already be entering court under the cloud of being Rhaegar's 'other woman,' probably blamed by many in this incredibly misogynistic society for 'starting' the war and killing off so many relatively innocent people and soldiers. Can you realistically see her being happy in her restricted role as Queen while everyone in court watches her for any possible blunders or follies? This is a sincere question for you, Jory.

And if Lyanna had lived and wasn't queen -- then what? She gets packed off to Winterfell, away from the legitimized child she just had? I doubt she'd end up any happier in that position either.

You're whole speculation resolves about Lyanna being happier with a man she rejected than with one she loved. You are supposing that Lyanna would be fine with Robert's promiscuity when we know that this is a characteristic she rejected from the start. And please explain why you can't imagine her "imagine her getting to rule much or do much or decide much" as queen.

I don't know what Rhaegar's plan's where for Lyanna, himself and their children after the ToJ-time, I don't even know whether he had any. But stating that she would be happier being married and living to a man she resented than being with a man she loved is a bold statement, mildly put.

And yes, I believe they were married, amongst other reasons especially because of the KG being present.

As for the bolded part, although you repeatedly neglected to answer questions of mine and to deliver certain textual evidence to back your statements, you'll get a sincere answer:

You scenario includes the Rebellion breaking out but Rhaegar not dying in the Battle of the Trident and furthermore, winning the whole battle, yes?

Even though I'm inclined to believe kind-hearted Elia would not resent Lyanna in a way other women would, she is not part of your scenario so irrelevant at this point.

And the premise that people would blame Lyanna, I'm not so sure of - I'd rather say they'd blame Aerys and maybe Rhaegar, though the latter seems to be king in your scenario, so I'm not so certain one would actually blame him.

And while I am not sold on the idea that the wolf blooded Lyanna would be overly concerned with who blames her for the Rebellion, she would probably blame herself to an extend.

And she is not only restricted to her role as Queen, but she also lives with the man she loves and a child by him, I can certainly see this making up for the (supposedly, as in your scenario) uncomfortable situation at court.

Whereas she wouldn't have such a compensation when she would live in a miserable marriage with the whoring drunkard Robert, true enough, she would've had some more liberties, but she simply did not want this life for herself - she chose the short happiness with Rhaegar over the long, miserable time with Robert.

And how do you know that she would be parted from her child only because she would not become queen?

eta: forgot a word