Maybe Rhaegar was obsessed with Lyanna?

[Blutraven]

That doesn't make sense because Barristan has no reason to praise Rhaegar in front of Dany, and still speak ill of her father, the king he actually swore his vow to.

From all of them, Ned and Selmy's views of Rhaegar are the most relevant and true.

Good point, didn't Barristan say that he didn't really know Rhaegar that well, compared to Arthur Dayne, so it could still be likely that he didn't see mad prophecy obsessed Rhaegarstiltskin,

[Nami]

Good point, didn't Barristan say that he didn't really know Rhaegar that well, compared to Arthur Dayne, so it could still be likely that he didn't see mad prophecy obsessed Rhaegarstiltskin,

We dont know if he was mad prophecy obsessed, we have no evidence of that so...

But this could be your canon until proven otherwise of course, just don't state it as a fact, please. :)

[Pikachu101]

I don't see the logic in that...

Plus we have no evidence of that.

Well Rhaegar thinks Aegon's the PTWP and that the three heads are Rhaenys, Aegon and most likely Visenya. He did say after all; "the dragon needs three heads".

So my guess is that because Visenya's family is from the North; you know the ice to ASOIAF. Rhaegar was hoping that the Starks would help Aegon in his fight against the Others.

Either that or he wanted Visenya's mother to be from one of the great houses and Lyanna was the only one willing to run off without telling her family first :dunno:

[Nami]

The song of ice and fire is for the prince that was promised, whom he thought it was Aegon

If he wanted a Visenya, she would be just a third head of the dragon, to complete the recreation of Aegon and his sisters, it has nothing to do with AA prophecy and the song. And he could do that with any woman easily accessible that wasn't already bethroned to someone else, even highborn women.

Again, your theory has no evidence whatsoever.

So you're basing that Rhaegar run off with Lyanna "prophecy obsessed with wanting a Visenya" on nothing, really.

[Pikachu101]

Again, your theory has no evidence whatsoever.

So you're basing that Rhaegar run off with Lyanna "prophecy obsessed with wanting a Visenya" on nothing, really.

Not really, I'm basing it off:

A) Rhaegar saying the dragon needs 3 heads

B ) a cliche love story is far too boring for ASOIAF

C) we don't have any evidence at all to come up with a solid judgement as to what happened in the ToJ. All theories have their strengths and weaknesses.

Personally I prefer a Rhaegar who was prophecy obsessed, not Lyanna obsessed. He'd make a more interesting character in a dark, twisted way. But in the end I could be wrong and you could be right, we just don't know :dunno:

[Nami]

Not really, I'm basing it off:

A) Rhaegar saying the dragon needs 3 heads

B ) a cliche love story is far too boring for ASOIAF

C) we don't have any evidence at all to come up with a solid judgement as to what happened in the ToJ. All theories have their strengths and weaknesses.

Personally I prefer a Rhaegar who was prophecy obsessed, not Lyanna obsessed. He'd make a more interesting character in a dark, twisted way. But in the end I could be wrong and you could be right, we just don't know :dunno:

Like pretty much everyone else?

I don't know, I would rather like a true romance in this story. We don't have any, besides Cat and Ned (and it's pretty boring)

But I wouldn't be surprised if Rhaegar was obsessed, with the woman though, because if it was with the prophecy he could get any other single woman to do the job, not take a bethroned one.

[Ludd]

Has it not occurred to anyone that Aerys may have kidnapped Lyanna and the KG were there on HIS orders.

Aerys feared a rebellion North, Arryn, Riverlands, Stormlands.

He was ALSO paranoid about Rhaegar.

Aerys may well have kidnapped Lyanna - although possibly she and Rheagar had already met and mated when she was the KoLT.

Remember the Maesters seem to want to kill magic, so look to a role for them in it somewhere too.

[Khal Porno]

I think it's kind of weird that people are saying "this is an interesting theory," because I thought that this "theory" is the face-value conclusion readers are meant to draw, and it's what Robert believed.

[corbon]

I have hard time imagining Lyanna simply standing by while knowing what happened to her family, pregnant or not. And she knew about it, because she told she wanted to buried next to them, according to Ned.

Everything fits if:

Everything already fits. Your 'objection' doesn't make sense if you look at things objectively from her position.

1) Daddy was going to marry me off to a drunken whoring boor

2) I ran away with Rhaegar instead

3) we went into hiding so no one could do anything stupid

4) Brandon did something so incredibly stupid we couldn't imagine or prevent it

5) Aerys (not Rhaegar) murdered Daddy and Brandon

6) There is now a rebellion, with Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn + others vs the Crown

7) and I only just now found this all out.

what to do?

i) I'm not on the Raven network, so can't just send a message.

ii) If the crown forces find me, most of them will be loyal to Aerys, who is probably the most dangerous person to me in the world right now. If he doesn't use me as a hostage vs the rebels, it'll be because the insane loon is torturing me to death for making his heir forsake the bride Aerys chose for him.

iii) if the rebels find me, I'll be separated from my love, the father of my unborn child, and given back to that boor Robert. And the rebellion is all about Brandon and Aerys, not me anyway, so it doesn't help anyone if I go home.

iv) it might be dangerous for me to travel just due to being pregnant as well, who knows.

what to do, what to do?

There are no good options.

People make the mistake of thinking she coudl go home - but how? And why? Home has nothing for her, except Robert, who she's already given up everything to avoid. And its across a warzone where she doesn't want to be 'caught' by either side.

The smartest option she has by far is to wait things out, let Rhaegar try to deal with the rebellion the best way he can (be magnaminious in victory) and then deal with Aerys.

Say at the beginning Lyanna did willingly run off with Rhaegar, but then found out about Brandon and Rickard's deaths obviously she'd try and contact her family.

Yes, obviously.

How and for what purpose? She's not on the raven network, she's miles from anywhere, Rickard and Brandon are dead already, Robert's a boor she's already done her best to avoid and Ned is 'somewhere in the south fighting a war'. And what good would it do anyway? She is nothing to do with the war - she became irrelevant the moment Brandon committed treason, and no one has mentioned her since.

Besides, how do you know she didn't?

We still don't know how Ned knew where to find her...

Ned did say to robert that "You avenged Lyanna in trident". Why would he say something like that if she wasn't being held against her will.

Because he's Robert-the-lackwit who defines his self-worth by the fact that Robert believes she was held against her will (even though subconciously he knows she wasn't, as evidenced by his comment that in death Rhaegar has her) .

Also, if he wanted a "Visenya", couldn't he just get any other woman close to him? Ashara Dayne? Whatever other woman in court would do too. Why Lyanna Stark?

KotLT. Brave, honourable, willing to risk self for whats right, even against society's conventions, a true knight in a world lacking them. the perfect Queen...

or

Ice. To his Fire. For aSoIaF.

This still explains the KG being at the ToJ as they'd still be protecting a royal prince.

No, it doesn't unless Rhaegar married Lyanna. Under any other circumstance (well, there is also the extremely unlikely option of Aegon being there) Viserys is the King those three KG are now loyal to, and Viserys is without a KG, as they knw, so any action that does not iclude at least one of their number trying to get to Viserys' side is breaking their vows.

Yet they reaffirm their vows and their loyalty to Aerys (and therefore Viserys) when talking to Ned.

[lareine]

It was never directly said to us that Rhaegar was after Lyanna because he was "prophecy obsessed" and wanted another child with her. This is something that was assumed here in this forum, to explain how things happened.

Also, if he wanted a "Visenya", couldn't he just get any other woman close to him? Ashara Dayne? Whatever other woman in court would do too. Why Lyanna Stark?

Maybe he just really wanted her because he was in love OR it was obsession, which could also explain this out of character behavior coming from someone who was known to be so dutiful.

And, I'm sorry if this is too personal but, have you ever been in love?

We do know from Aemon and from Dany’s scene at the HOTU that Rhaegar was interested in several different prophecies, particularly how they related to him and his children. We also know that at one point he did believe that Aegon was TPTWP. He literally does say in the HOTU that, “there MUST be ONE more; the dragon has three heads.” But you are right; though this may be a strong hint, it isn’t any sort of definitive proof that this was his primary motivation in his relationship with Lyanna and I should have been clearer that this was just my personal head cannon. I apologize and will try to be better about that in future posts.

At the same time, I also don’t think that there is anything in the books so far that definitively states how Lyanna really felt about him either. No one has stated that she was deeply in love with him, or even how she felt about his crowning her QOLAB. Yes, she did cry when he was playing the harp, but that was very soon after they first met and she could have just been emotionally moved by the song. Yes, Ned doesn’t seem to bear any excessive animosity towards Rhaegar but to me he just comes across as vague and ambivalent in his recollections of the Crown Prince. Ned does say that his sister was very strong willed, “wolf-blooded” and impulsive, hinting that she wasn’t the type of woman who would be forced into doing something she didn’t want to do and might have gone willingly, but we really don’t know that for sure. We also know from Ned that she wasn’t entirely thrilled with her impending marriage to Robert, but we really don’t know her feelings in full. I’m sure that in time, all of these questions will be answered with the future books.

I love romances too, and I do apologize if my last comment came across as glib, or if it seemed as if I was mocking the possibility that they could have genuinely been in love. And no, it’s not too personal a question to ask if I have ever been in love before; I have been, more than once in both good ways and in bad. Love is a very powerful force and it can be as just as destructive as it is wonderful, especially when you become excessively consumed with each other. Two people can genuinely love each other, but that doesn’t guarantee that they are going to be good for each other nor does it excuse the damage they inflict. It’s very easy when you first meet someone and you’re strongly attracted to them to get so caught up in the emotion and experience that you can’t see the forest for the trees. It’s like being in a fog. You’re so in love that you make impulsive and foolish decisions and behave in ways you never thought possible out of fear of losing that person.

I have a lot of empathy for Lyanna and Rhaegar and I will state (again, this is just my head cannon) that I do believe that they did genuinely love each other. I also believe that Rhaegar deeply loved his children and I even believe he loved Elia too, though probably in a very different way from how he felt about Lyanna. But I also think its possible that both of them may have had other motivations in addition to their love that heightened their feelings for each other and influenced their actions. I think that its likely they got in way over their heads too quickly and things spiraled out of control and got ugly. No matter how genuine their love was, and no matter how honorable their intentions were, the way they wound up consummating their love was incredibly destructive both to each other, their families and the kingdom. For all those reasons I do think that even if the story turns out to be a genuine romance, it's going to be a very dark and bittersweet one.

[Lord Damian]

Rheagar throughout his life seemed to modify what he did and how he did it based on the "Prince Who Was Promissed" prophecy. He thought Aegon was that prince but he could have no other kids. Then, the Harrenhal tournament happened and he "lost his marbles" I am beginning to think that Rheagar may have changed his mind again after he and Lyanna took off with one another. Maybe he thought that her son by him would be the "PWWP" and not Aegon. Who knows but I am pretty sure we are gonna find out.

[Nami]

We do know from Aemon and from Dany’s scene at the HOTU that Rhaegar was interested in several different prophecies, particularly how they related to him and his children. We also know that at one point he did believe that Aegon was TPTWP. He literally does say in the HOTU that, “there MUST be ONE more; the dragon has three heads.” But you are right; though this may be a strong hint, it isn’t any sort of definitive proof that this was his primary motivation in his relationship with Lyanna and I should have been clearer that this was just my personal head cannon. I apologize and will try to be better about that in future posts.

At the same time, I also don’t think that there is anything in the books so far that definitively states how Lyanna really felt about him either. No one has stated that she was deeply in love with him, or even how she felt about his crowning her QOLAB. Yes, she did cry when he was playing the harp, but that was very soon after they first met and she could have just been emotionally moved by the song. Yes, Ned doesn’t seem to bear any excessive animosity towards Rhaegar but to me he just comes across as vague and ambivalent in his recollections of the Crown Prince. Ned does say that his sister was very strong willed, “wolf-blooded” and impulsive, hinting that she wasn’t the type of woman who would be forced into doing something she didn’t want to do and might have gone willingly, but we really don’t know that for sure. We also know from Ned that she wasn’t entirely thrilled with her impending marriage to Robert, but we really don’t know her feelings in full. I’m sure that in time, all of these questions will be answered with the future books.

I love romances too, and I do apologize if my last comment came across as glib, or if it seemed as if I was mocking the possibility that they could have genuinely been in love. And no, it’s not too personal a question to ask if I have ever been in love before; I have been, more than once in both good ways and in bad. Love is a very powerful force and it can be as just as destructive as it is wonderful, especially when you become excessively consumed with each other. Two people can genuinely love each other, but that doesn’t guarantee that they are going to be good for each other nor does it excuse the damage they inflict. It’s very easy when you first meet someone and you’re strongly attracted to them to get so caught up in the emotion and experience that you can’t see the forest for the trees. It’s like being in a fog. You’re so in love that you make impulsive and foolish decisions and behave in ways you never thought possible out of fear of losing that person.

I have a lot of empathy for Lyanna and Rhaegar and I will state (again, this is just my head cannon) that I do believe that they did genuinely love each other. I also believe that Rhaegar deeply loved his children and I even believe he loved Elia too, though probably in a very different way from how he felt about Lyanna. But I also think its possible that both of them may have had other motivations in addition to their love that heightened their feelings for each other and influenced their actions. I think that its likely they got in way over their heads too quickly and things spiraled out of control and got ugly. No matter how genuine their love was, and no matter how honorable their intentions were, the way they wound up consummating their love was incredibly destructive both to each other, their families and the kingdom. For all those reasons I do think that even if the story turns out to be a genuine romance, it's going to be a very dark and bittersweet one.

I agree

[corbon]

Rheagar throughout his life seemed to modify what he did and how he did it based on the "Prince Who Was Promissed" prophecy. He thought Aegon was that prince but he could have no other kids. Then, the Harrenhal tournament happened and he "lost his marbles" I am beginning to think that Rheagar may have changed his mind again after he and Lyanna took off with one another. Maybe he thought that her son by him would be the "PWWP" and not Aegon. Who knows but I am pretty sure we are gonna find out.

Aegon was conceived around the time of Harrenhal, born about 9 months later..

[Nami]

Aegon was conceived around the time of Harrenhal, born about 9 months later..

I thought he was conceived after Harrenhal?

[corbon]

I thought he was conceived after Harrenhal?

around the time...

Tourney was in 281.

He was born in 282.

Rhaegar is still with Elia when he was born, per Dany's vision and GRRMs' confirmation.

Lyanna's 'abduction' is about a year after the tourney, so Aegon is born sometime before then.

So either shortly before the Tourney, or within 3 months or so after it, is Aegon's conception, in KL, under a comet. Exactly when depends on how long it is bewteen his birth and Lyanna's abduction. And if Rhaegar was still planning his 3 heads with Elia until she births Aegon and the Maesters say she can't have more kids, then he still needs some time to find Lyanna and convince her to elope with him. So the conception is more likely to be closer to the tourney, or before, than at the other end of the available window.

[Ygrain]

The love story about R+L is pretty much fan fiction.

We really don't know enough to tell how it was exactly. I hope it's not a cliche tragic love story, but whatever GRRM is planning, I'm sure it will be good

"Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" pretty much nails it from Rhaegar's side. What nails it from the other side is Ned's comparison of Robert and Rhaegar, in favour of Rhaegar, about (not) frequenting brothels - any comparison drawn between a betrothed and a rapist is totally gross and out of place, unless Ned knows that no rape was involved, which doesn't leave many other options. Plus, the subject of the comparison becomes relevant only if the two were somehow on par - a betrothed and a lover/husband.

When you read the first book and about Rhaegar, the story is that he kidnapped and raped her, so when it's mentioned that the KG were there guarding the tower she was in, you understand that they were preventing her from leaving. This is all before reading in the other books info about how Rhaegar was a nice fella.

Nope - the part I mentioned above is in AGOT, and it's pretty much a WTF?! moment.

[Nami]

Nope - the part I mentioned above is in AGOT, and it's pretty much a WTF?! moment.

Oh yes, I remember that and thinking that the comparison was out of nowhere, BUT, at the time I thought he was just comparing because Rhaegar was supposed to be king in Robert's place, not because of Lyanna

[Ygrain]

Oh yes, I remember that and thinking that the comparison was out of nowhere, BUT, at the time I thought he was just comparing because Rhaegar was supposed to be king in Robert's place, not because of Lyanna

King or not, being the guy who raped Lyanna was an inseparable label - unless, of course, he was not. Plus, the whole context of lust, bastards, young mother, and the general disgust/disillusionment with Robert...

[Harpo of House Trashcan]

I always thought that Rhaegar just kidnapped and raped her.

[balletluv12]

It does strikes me as a bit odd that Lyanna is bothered by Robert's affairs and bastards, and yet runs away with a married man and becomes the "other woman" as it were. It just seems a bit hypocritical, and possibly out of character for the honorable Starks. On another note, Can anyone find the quote from the AGOT with Ned's reflections on Rhaegar and Robert? I had to return my copy to the library, and I would love to have the exact wording.