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Wylla Manderly and Lyanna Mormont- just a discussion


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Wylla Manderly and Lyanna Mormont, two minor characters who have (so far) very little role in the plot but have made a memorable impression upon many of the stories readers. Both girls are younger, IIRC they are about Sansa and Arya's age. They are also both female (obviously) but I want to explore them a little further, as well as what their role in the story has been thus far and if there is a future for them, or if they were one time appearances.

Wylla Manderly and Lyanna Mormont (I will stop using their last names now) are both ardent supporters of the North and the Starks. Does anyone else find this as interesting as I do? I find it interesting for several reasons:


  1. Thus far, their families are supporting other contenders to the throne.


  2. They are very young to have such a strong allegiance, I can't say that any other characters of this age are as ardent in their support for who they believe their liege lord to be.


  3. They are female.

Now to expand upon this. How is it that these young girls are such ardent supporters of a cause that their family does not (openly) seem to support? Was their support for the North/Starks ingrained upon them since their birth? While I find it possible, as feudal systems teach allegiance to one's lord and ultimately the person over them etc etc. I find it unusual because no other characters (at this age) seem to have such a passion for their liege lord. It is also unusual because their families are currently in open opposition to the views the girls themselves are expressing. Does this support the GNC but perhaps the girls are not in on it, and therefore, since they are unknowledgable about the greater game at play they feel that their families are truly betraying the Starks? Or are they aware of the GNC and don't care about thumbing their nose at the opposing parties without the awareness that their families could be put in precarious positions because of their outspoken opposition? Think of how Stannis confronts Jon about Lyanna's letter, I have a feeling that if that letter had been sent to KL and been put into the hands of Cersei heads would probably roll at such outright defiance. Or, I guess the simplest answer would be, that the girls are just spunky like Arya is.

Now, the last thing I have listed is “they are female”, and I don't mean that in a demeaning way. I just think it makes it even more unusual that at female should have such a strong allegiance at such a young age. In this time period I would think that a female would not be raised to have such strong feelings of allegiance, granted that is an assumption on my part, but here is my reasoning. Females are married off to other families, sometimes depending on the arrangements, this could be a family with a different loyalty. It could be to seal an alliance, between the two families, but hey, if that goes down the drain, in laws could be fighting each other or on opposite sides of a war. So I would think that females would be raised with the belief that they must have allegiance first and foremost to their husband, and his family. If once married, the couple has children, her children will be raised as her husbands with his allegiances, so she must support those allegiances as well or her immediate family will be divided. For this reason, I find it difficult to believe that the Mormont's and Manderly’s (who are new(er) to the Northern allegiance) have instilled such a sense of devoutness to the Starks. What if for some reason a Manderly found a reason to marry his daughter to a Frey? It is talked about in the books, but as this is after the RW it is believed that Manderly has no intention of following through with said betrothals. What if, however, the marriage would have taken place...oh say a year before the RW and a Manderly girl wed a Frey boy/man and would have given birth to a Frey male (granted there are so many Frey's it wouldn't matter, but this is just an example that could be applied elsewhere as well) her immediate family would be threatened by division when the Frey's switch their allegiance. She would be double trapped by the fact that she has a child with the last name Frey. Who would she support? Probably the Manderly’s in her heart and mind, but she would have to still support her husband who is the father of her child and gave a name to her child etc. So her kin would be fighting her in laws. A very difficult situation indeed (in my opinion) I would not want to be in such a spot where my husband's family and my birth family are in opposition/war with each other, especially if I had a fondness for my husband, especially if I had a child with said husband. It would create quite the tangled web. So, how is it that two young females of marriageable age have such strong Stark allegiance, when they (most likely) should be raised to be neutral so they can easily transition their loyalties to that of their husband?

I'm not theorizing anything so to speak, it's more so just a curiosity on my part that I'd like to hear other readers thoughts/view upon. Why is it that these two girls are such ardent supporters of the Starks? How did they get such a sense of duty ingrained into them when seemingly there families are allying with the opposition? As females who would eventually marry into another family, how is it that two young girls have such fervor for a liege lord who may not end up being their liege lord once they marry? Does anyone else think it is interesting that two children (so to speak) have such zeal for their Stark lords?

ETA: Spellcheck made "Manderly's" into "Salamanders" - I think I fixed them all.

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Because kids tend to pick up the allegiances and loyalties to those of their peers, elder youths, parents, etc? :dunno:

I personally always took Wylla's and Lyanna's stances as evidence for the Great Northern Conspiracy. They hear their elders planning, gossiping, and talking behind closed doors about getting revenge, but they have more problems holding their emotions under wraps, well, because they have the excuse of youth and they don't really have to hide their feelings about such things at this point?

Just a guess.

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Because kids tend to pick up the allegiances and loyalties to those of their peers, elder youths, parents, etc? :dunno:

I personally always took Wylla's and Lyanna's stances as evidence for the Great Northern Conspiracy. They hear their elders planning, gossiping, and talking behind closed doors about getting revenge, but they have more problems holding their emotions under wraps, well, because they have the excuse of youth and they don't really have to hide their feelings about such things at this point?

Just a guess.

This was along the lines of my thinking while reading the OP. I think the girls can more freely express their opinions while the adults/leaders around them have to be more...pragmatic, so to speak.
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Ok, so because they are children they have more leeway with their speech and although it's not encouraged the attitude is more of "kids say the darndest things". Do you think the girls are really on to what their parents are up to (GNC???) or do you think they are being left in the dark and therefore feel the need to speak their mind since no one else seems to be?

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Ok, so because they are children they have more leeway with their speech and although it's not encouraged the attitude is more of "kids say the darndest things". Do you think the girls are really on to what their parents are up to (GNC???) or do you think they are being left in the dark and therefore feel the need to speak their mind since no one else seems to be?

Hmm... hadn't really thought about it like that, could easily be either depending on the personality of the teenager in question. I always thought the names were a clue too... as Wylla and Lyanna are prominent names in other Stark conspiracies, why not the GNC?

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I think that these children grew up knowing all the legends that Bran and the others grew up with, and the Starks are very prominant. The Starks are always depicted as the heros, even Torrhen, the King who Knelt. Even in the current time Ned is seen as just, honorable, and a general good guy. Even children would hear about their leige lord from their parents if they didn't journey to Winterfell themselves. They also follow the old way, which might be important to some (I think White Harbor is said to be the only place where the "seven" have taken root? Could be misremembering.) who also follow the old way. These would cement the lesser Lords to the Starks in Winterfell IMO better than Tywin's way of making his subjects fear him.

Also when you compare the Starks to others the rest of committed heinus acts towards the North, Freys and Boltons, of course, but they did it with the help/encouragement of the "Baratheons" (quotes because its the correct house name for Cersei, Joff, Tommen) and Lannisters. Stannis is a stranger to them and shares the house name with the current king in King's Landing so many might equate them in their minds with no facts other than a name. And there's no way in hell they would ever ally with the Iron Islands even before the War of 5 Kings.

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They are such minor characters but so long after read the book....they continue to grow in my heart...in a way that I truly wish one of them to end up as Lady of Winterfell.

Wylla Manderly and Lyanna Mormont represent the love/devotion the North have for the Starks when all 7K think that the House Stark have already ended...they represent the pain of the readers that have never forgot Ned and the RW and talk about a dark side about humans...that we do not care about justice anymore after all that happened...we just want simple revenge.

I find really curious what Lyanna Mormont said...sometimes makes me think that is Lyanna Stark telling anyone that the only true king is Jon.

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As to Wylla:

In his secret meeting with Davos after his "death" when Davos asks about this very thing, Manderly responds that his granddaughter "played her part perfectly" or something like that. So, at the very least, whether she herself is aware of it or not, Wylla is participating in Manderly's part of the Northern Game.

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Because kids tend to pick up the allegiances and loyalties to those of their peers, elder youths, parents, etc? :dunno:

I personally always took Wylla's and Lyanna's stances as evidence for the Great Northern Conspiracy. They hear their elders planning, gossiping, and talking behind closed doors about getting revenge, but they have more problems holding their emotions under wraps, well, because they have the excuse of youth and they don't really have to hide their feelings about such things at this point?

Just a guess.

Agree with all of this :agree:

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As to Wylla:

In his secret meeting with Davos after his "death" when Davos asks about this very thing, Manderly responds that his granddaughter "played her part perfectly" or something like that. So, at the very least, whether she herself is aware of it or not, Wylla is participating in Manderly's part of the Northern Game.

Oh, was he referring to Wylla? For some reason I thought he was referring to one of his other daughters that was to marry into the Frey's. Misinterpretation on my part.

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They are such minor characters but so long after read the book....they continue to grow in my heart...in a way that I truly wish one of them to end up as Lady of Winterfell.

Wylla Manderly and Lyanna Mormont represent the love/devotion the North have for the Starks when all 7K think that the House Stark have already ended...they represent the pain of the readers that have never forgot Ned and the RW and talk about a dark side about humans...that we do not care about justice anymore after all that happened...we just want simple revenge.

I find really curious what Lyanna Mormont said...sometimes makes me think that is Lyanna Stark telling anyone that the only true king is Jon.

I agree with what you say and I think that yes, right now, the North probably feels their toes have been trampled and they are out not only for revenge for themselves but for the Starks who have been their liege lords for a very long time. As far as Lyanna Mormont- that's a good connection! I did not think about that.
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As to Wylla:

In his secret meeting with Davos after his "death" when Davos asks about this very thing, Manderly responds that his granddaughter "played her part perfectly" or something like that. So, at the very least, whether she herself is aware of it or not, Wylla is participating in Manderly's part of the Northern Game.

I think you've nailed it as far as Wylla is concerned, though I tend to think Wyman gave her a little, subtle encouragement. It probably wasn't hard since Wyman seems like the "fun grandpa" type.

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As to Wylla:

In his secret meeting with Davos after his "death" when Davos asks about this very thing, Manderly responds that his granddaughter "played her part perfectly" or something like that. So, at the very least, whether she herself is aware of it or not, Wylla is participating in Manderly's part of the Northern Game.

Quote please. I think you are confusing something there...

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Quote please. I think you are confusing something there...

I think this might be what they're referring to. I interpreted it differently. This is when Davos is first brought in. My "enter" button does not work on the forum so bear with me. "Manderly pulled her close. 'Wylla, every time you open your mouth you make me want to send you to the silent sisters'...'I only said--'..."we heard what you said," said the older girl, her sister."A child's foolishness. Speak no ill of our friends of Frey. One of them will be your lord and husband soon."..."No," the girl declared, shaking her head. "I won't. I won't EVER. They killed THE KING."...Lord Whyman flushed. "you Will. When the appointed day arrives, you will speak your wedding vows, else you will join the silent sisters and never speak again." ...'The poor girl looked stricken. "Grandfather, PLEASE..." ...."hush, child" said Lady Leono. "You heard your lord grandfather. HUSH! You know nothing." ...then she goes on about "the promise", besieghing the Maester to speak for her. That was in paperback around page 275/276. Then later on page 427..."Wylla." Lord Wyman smiled. "Did you see how brave she was? Even when I threatened to have her tongue out, she reminded me of the debt White Harbor owes to the Starks of Winterfell, a debt that can never be repaid. Whylla spoke from the heard, as did Lady Leona. Forgive her if you can, my lord. She is a foolish, frightened woman, and Wylis is her life. Not every man has it in him to be Prince Aemon the Dragonknight or Symeon Star-Eyes, and not ever woman can be as brave as my Wylla and her sister Wynafryd...who DID know, yet played her own part fearlessly." SOOOOO WYLLA has NO CLUE what White Harbor and the Manderly's are up to. The threats Wyman made to her she took in earnest, not realizing what is really going on. As far as for being AWARE of what is going on, Manderly indicates that the older sister's are aware, ie WYNAFRED not WYLLA....to my interpretation.

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Ok, so I stand corrected in my false remembrance of the scenes in question, BUT the point I think still stands: Wyman is using his granddaughter(s) as pieces in his part of the Game, but Wylla has no idea that she is being used in this way

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But isn't anyone as surprised as I am at their zealist loyalty to the Starks? Especially when they are FEMALE and could easily be married into a family that may eventually become an enemy? I mean, shouldn't they (as females) be raised with a neutral loyalty so to speak so that they can take on their husbands alliegences?

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